New FFH2 PBEM?

[Ellimist]

Well, you've clarified one thing very well for me Ellmist. I now understand your perspective on your treatment of me a bit better- you were treating me like one of your mis-behaving employees.

I treated your disruptive behavior as a problem in need of solving. It is true that I apply a similar thought process to other situations, both in-game and in my personal life.

What you failed to realize, and I tried to point out multiple times here, is that it was a conceited view you had. You were not the retail store manager here. You were an angry employee in a store that was being poorly-run, deciding that *HE* was going to take charge of the store and kick out the original manager.

The player who starts a PBEM is, by default, the one in charge. So kicking me out of that position was like an employee kicking out his own manager. Sure, you may not have *liked* my position of authority, felt I deserved it or was qualified for it (perhaps you thought you could do it better), or even actually respected it by conferring me any real power over how things were managed- but you did not have the moral *right* to rebel and treat me like this, even if you had the ability to take power for yourself...

Methaphor aside. I think things would have gone much more smoothly if you have just respected the authority I had from the beginning instead of constantly denying me any power and eventually forcefully seizing my position from me, but I did a poor job of managing this PBEM early on- and after that things snowballed out of control- so I'm not entirely faultless either...

I am sorry, but you are simply incorrect here. No single person has authority over a pbem. It is a collaborative effort between every player. This is why I have insisted upon unanimity.

The person who starts a pbem does not have authority, what they have is an incentive to keep things on track during the organization process. Other players, who are not willing to take on this responsibility, show deference to them during the pre-game due to simple pragmatism -- Somebody has to keep things moving in a productive direction.

I have attempted to explain this to you before. It doesn't matter if you agree with me. It's simply the way it is. Changes to a pbem require unanimity or unanimous consent, there is no "leader."

Please refer to my apology. You've got it right that I failed your condition of "Drama", but by any accurate accounting I passed 5 out of the 7 other conditions you set- and I am sincerely apologetic for the one I failed...

I waited to share my own opinion in my assessment post until I knew whether we were unanimous.

(1) Is ambiguous. Your window is very different from what you committed to when the game was initiated. It is potentially workable but will never be easy to accommodate.
(2) You have refused to affirm consent to what was asked of you.
(6) Will obviously never work. You have asked for replays for most of the turns that were played by Old Lion, and insisted on being the only person to make any independent decisions at all. You criticize Old Lion constantly over what is probably relatively minor differences of opinion.
(7) I specifically asked you to avoid causing drama, and to find someone else to advocate on your behalf if it was unavoidable. You have made no apparent attempts to comply with this. Constantly insisting that Tasunke and others replay turns is incredibly disrespectful to everyone involved.

[Ellimist]

One more thing.

Ellmist, what I really desire is reconciliation here. But, if that proves absolutely impossible, please do not steal the PBEM that I started from me. That's not right.

Instead, take a copy of the save and create a "new" PBEM with its own sub-forum, where you would "rightfully" be the one in charge, and have the moral authority to do whatever you want...

In short, take advantage of the authority you always did have- the authority over your own decision to remain in the game. IF agreement can't be reached, leave and start a "clone" PBEM (the existence of to which I will have no objections). Leave me to try and find other players to replace you and anyone who leaves with you, or to try and trudge along with AI's replacing any players who left... (technically, there's little reason we couldn't have both games operating in parallel, with some players like Tasunke and Saruman playing in both) This is one of the "alternatives" I was talking about before, and is the *MORALLY RIGHT* thing to do here...

You have a copy of your saves. If you would like to try and find other players to take over the other four positions you are welcome to do so and continue onwards. My password is " "(a single space). Other players may be willing to provide you with their own passwords by pm. You can also load the game into pitboss mode and the other four players will be automatically replaced with AIs.

I do not have the authority to add you back unilaterally, just as I did not have the authority to remove you unilaterally.

I am not going to jump through hoops to satisfy your preferences. You have been removed from FFH-41 and this game will continue on without you. You are welcome to use the save files in your possession however you like, so long as it does not violate the rules of Realms Beyond(posting spoilers, etc.).

[Northstar1989]

(2) You have refused to affirm consent to what was asked of you.

Actually, I affirmed what you asked of me quite a few times. I only refused to put it in your *specific* wording, because I felt that to do so would be to acknowledge your right to remove me from the PBEM in the first place. You always had my guarantee of more rapid turnaround-times, and I think you know that in your heart...


I admit failure on #7, and I respectfully disagree about #6- I had a number of plans on how to improve things with Old Lion that I was beginning to privately work out in consultation with Tasunke... You can ask Tasunke about this if you don't believe me. Just prior to your "decision" he had sent me a PM with advice about reconciling things with Old Lion, and I had begun to write him a reply about how to put his advice into action- as I thought he had some great ideas...

There was never anything I could do about #1- I have to work for a living (and have been avidly searching for a better-paying job, which would allow me to return to my originally-committed play-window by not having to work nights at a second job anymore...)


I disagree about where the authority lies for a PBEM. There is always a leader- and unless everybody agrees on somebody else, that is going to be the person who started the PBEM by default.


Please see my post about the morally-correct course of action if reconciliation cannot be had here. The honorable thing to do is not to steal my own PBEM from me- it is to create an independent "clone" PBEM using the latest save, and go off and play THAT with anybody who is willing to join you. A split from the main branch (that could likely outlive and outperform the main branch in terms of player-participation) utilizing your freedom of choice to remain in the PBEM which nobody can ever take away from you, in essence...

If agreement cannot be reached, then leave me with this sub-forum and the latest save (i.e. send me the next turn derived from the last save I sent around), with passwords changed for you and anyone else who is leaving (to something that you can provide to anybody who replaces you, or that you trust me with the passwords for), at the very least- so I can *attempt* to find replacement-players in you insist of leaving, and can continue playing in the PBEM that I started. THAT is the RIGHT thing to do, morally speaking.


Once again, though- I desire reconciliation, not division. I still don't see what could have possible set you off to try and remove me- the turns were being passed on regularly and quickly from my end- except for Old Lion's decision to break with me. And, you did say I had the right to choose any partner I wanted- so even by your own standards it would be unreasonable to hold that against me when it's still possible I could find a replacement for Old Lion...


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

One more thing.

Ellmist, what I really desire is reconciliation here. But, if that proves absolutely impossible, please do not steal the PBEM that I started from me. That's not right.

Instead, take a copy of the save and create a "new" PBEM with its own sub-forum, where you would "rightfully" be the one in charge, and have the moral authority to do whatever you want...

In short, take advantage of the authority you always did have- the authority over your own decision to remain in the game. IF agreement can't be reached, leave and start a "clone" PBEM (the existence of to which I will have no objections). Leave me to try and find other players to replace you and anyone who leaves with you, or to try and trudge along with AI's replacing any players who left... (technically, there's little reason we couldn't have both games operating in parallel, with some players like Tasunke and Saruman playing in both) This is one of the "alternatives" I was talking about before, and is the *MORALLY RIGHT* thing to do here...

You have a copy of your saves. If you would like to try and find other players to take over the other four positions you are welcome to do so and continue onwards. My password is " "(a single space). Other players may be willing to provide you with their own passwords by pm. You can also load the game into pitboss mode and the other four players will be automatically replaced with AIs.

I do not have the authority to add you back unilaterally, just as I did not have the authority to remove you unilaterally.

I am not going to jump through hoops to satisfy your preferences. You have been removed from FFH-41 and this game will continue on without you. You are welcome to use the save files in your possession however you like, so long as it does not violate the rules of Realms Beyond(posting spoilers, etc.).

That's not leaving me with a place to publicly play the PBEM, Ellmist. And that's not providing other players the option to remain in *both* PBEM's following a split.

Once again, leave if you must- but it's not right to take the PBEM from me. If you have issues with me, the right thing to do is to leave yourself- not to kick me out of my own PBEM.


Let's put that bit on hold for a second, though. Could we discuss what the issues actually are here that make you want to remove me from the PBEM? Please, no rehashing the past- what are the issues *here and now* that make you not want to play with me?


Regards,
Northstar

[Tasunke]

I disagree about where the authority lies for a PBEM. There is always a leader- and unless everybody agrees on somebody else, that is going to be the person who started the PBEM by default.

The decision to change the Balseraph leadership, or to at least be open to such a change, was by and large unanimous, however it did not start in this way. I don't think that anyone takes joy over the course of these events, but it can certainly be said that there was undue drama in the thread. And that, as Communities go, this is more or less how communities work. You did have authority, over the leadership of the Balseraphs. The PBEM meanwhile, isn't a client state, but is a Community.

I would recommend you to a Pitboss game. In those games, you play 1 turn per 24 hours, and everyone else does the same, in simultaneous fashion. In such a game something like this would have almost certainly never have happened. (The only drama in those games is from actual warfare). And there are certainly NO REPLAYS in a pitboss because, in a pitboss, once it happens it has happened for good .... (as it affects everyone, and the host too, I think, and only occurs in instances of RULE VIOLATIONS)

Turn Timer games are like Brawls, its quick (relatively speaking), anything can happen, and while injury can occur, the game itself will have a winner regardless of injury.

Pitboss games are much like a Team Event/ Sports competition ... the rules are clearly defined, and if u can't show up to play the turn, then guess what? The turn just doesnt get played. Other people will have played turn 22/23/etc ... and you have not, because you werent able to log in during the 24 hour window.

PBEMs meanwhile, are more like communities. They take time, and mutual commitment. The actions of one player affect EVERYONE ELSE. And therefore everyone is responsible for behaving like a responsible and industrious member of the community to the best of his or her abilities. Teamwork, Flexibility, Punctuality, and Patience are positive traits. Rudeness, Selfishness, Ignorance, and Delusion are negative traits.

In a PBEM it is the responsibility of everyone to keep a game going. Often times a winner is declared long before a game has been won b/c someone has gotten into a winnable position. This, of course, can be said of the other types, but especially of this one. PBEMs are democracies, and if decisions do have to be made, from time to time, by individuals, it requires an authority from the Community. From Everyone.

Northstar, I was trying to help you become a better player, a better teammate, and a better PBEM player. And I think I can still help you, and I think that such improvement will keep something like this from happening again.

You are out of the game Northstar. Time to start a new one.

[Northstar1989]

Tasunke, you write as if the major issue was turn-times, but when Ellmist decided he was removing me from the game (the most recent time- he's been trying to push this for a while) we had averaged more than a turn/day for an entire week- in no small part due to a lot of extra effort on my part to improve turnaround-times.

So, what is the issue here? What makes any of you feel you are justified in removing me from the game?

No decision is ever irreversible- and as is nobody has raised a single reason for removing me. Ellmist raised a list of conditions, but I passed the majority of them (all except his one on "drama" and my play-window: the latter of which he knew it was completely impossible for me to change... By the way, only reason I can write this now is because I'm home sick with a cold...)


So, what is the reasoning for this? You (morally) can't just remove a player from a game without justifications. I never was obligated to work with Old Lion- even according to Ellmist own conditions I was free to work with any player I desired- so nobody can use Old Lion leaving as an excuse, as I was never required to work with him in the first place...


The turns I said Old Lion "botched" were not for "minor disagreements" over strategy, as some of you suggested- he made legitimate mistakes. I already recounted how he simply forgot to swap into Agrarianism after we discovered Calendar (there was no reason whatsoever to delay it- he just didn't bother). There were other similar mistakes made later that I can't reveal without spoiling the game, that led to literally every other request for a replay. So, even if I didn't handle it the most tactfully, I had legitimate concerns with Old Lion's performance that caused me to ask for replays...


Regards,
Northstar

[Kragroth]

North,

It's done. You're still in the bargaining phase. It's time to enter the acceptance phase.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages...ief/000617

[Northstar1989]

North,

It's done. You're still in the bargaining phase. It's time to enter the acceptance phase.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages...ief/000617

Kragroth, I have more training in psychology than you know- and that model is a bunch of bogus used to strongarm people into accepting whatever happens to them. It particularly sees a lot of use by the people who cause others said problems in the first place...

You need to stop gloating over a wrong, unjustified thing that happened.


Once again, the question remains- what is the justification for removing me from the game? None was ever given.


Regards,
Northstar

[Kragroth]

North,

It's done. You're still in the bargaining phase. It's time to enter the acceptance phase.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/the-5-stages...ief/000617

Kragroth, I have more training in psychology than you know- and that model is a bunch of bogus used to strongarm people into accepting whatever happens to them. It particularly sees a lot of use by the people who cause others said problems in the first place...

You need to stop gloating over a wrong, unjustified thing that happened.


Once again, the question remains- what is the justification for removing me from the game? None was ever given.


Regards,
Northstar

And yet you're still bargaining? Reread the thread, the reasons have already been given. For your sake, I'll repeat them. And, please don't respond to me with long post after long post about this; I'm not going to endlessly argue with you.

You know what, nevermind. Whatever I post you'll just argue with me and deny what I say.

[Northstar1989]

There was a review of a set of "conditions" that Ellmist and yourself gave in an ultimatum (which really, you had no right to give) Kragroth, but no actual justification was given as to what were the deciding factors.

Thus, it's logical to assume that the deciding factor was what most closely matched with the timing of my removal- Old Lion's decision not to con tinue partnering with me.


This might seem like the most asinine thing for me to say now, but you guys have missed one of the single most important factors in this whole issue- I never *choose* to work with Old Lion.

Rather, he was *suggested* to me as a potential partner when my turn-times were lagging.

I had some legitimate concerns (which later events fully validated) about taking on a partner of completely unknown skill-level, attention-to-detail, and most importantly temperament/altitude to work with, so rightfully I began to *screen* Old Lion through a process I had planned out for myself which included a series of questions about screenshots I posted and turns I had already played, a discussion of expectations and responsibilities (for instance, posting screenshots- which Old Lion never, not once, did), and most importantly a couple *test-turns* that I would have identified as such to you guys or set up in a separate PBEM scenario of my own creation, where I would have asked Old Lion to play 2-3 turnds and seen if he missed major details that could screw me over or remembered to take screenshots of his turns..


If I have been allowed to perform my evaluation-process, which I had *every right to perform*, I can say in hindsight that Old Lion would have, regretfully, failed it, and I would have refused to take him on as a partner. Rather than give me the opportunity to actually select a partner for myself, though, Old Lion was *forced* upon me when you guys hacked my password and handed him my saves before I was ready.

Then, after the partner who I would never have considered qualified in the first place (but tried to work with- to make the best of a bad situation) left because he couldn't handle the legitimate (if somewhat harsh and untactful) criticism I leveled at him, partially hoping to see some improvement on his end (and not all that different than the criticism leveled at *me* for my slow turn times and somewhat untactful behavior here on the tech thread), you guys removed me from the game that I started in the first place, by secret process, and only informed me of your decision afterwards.


Things look quite different when you take an objective view of what actually happened, rather than viewing them through the lens of your own experiences and opinions.


I have been thinking about this, and ultimately problems stemmed from my being given a partner who was a poor match and who I never wanted. You guys *claimed* I had the right to choose my own partner, but then when I actually exercised that right by, criticizing Old Lion's mistakes to the point he left, you kicked me out of my own PBEM. I would respectfully request, once again, that I be restored to the PBEM that I started in the first place- and that I be given the freedom to select my own partner. My turn-times improved anyways, as evidenced by the last week: where I would have averaged a turn/day with or without Old Lion...


Regards,
Northstar