RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Friendly Kittens (Ragnar of Maya)

[Maniac Marshall]

Unless the turn rolls in the next few min, I won't be able to get it until tonite. I'll try to look over and maybe suggest a micro plan in the next 2 days.

[RefSteel]

Made the obvious move 1SE into the jungle, revealing Yet More And More Floodplains™ in the deep south.



Also looks suspiciously like the start of a river there. Hmmmm. I'll have to think about the implications of that, if any.

The next move is also obvious: 1NE. Be aware that in my test games, the land is crawling with barbs at this point. (Animals, but bears and panthers are scarier than warriors anyway.)

Other Random Notes: I left out a possibility in my discussion of "Who has 21 GNP?" several posts back, and it's probably the real one. (Sullla won't have put any Oases in anyone's easy reach.) Willem spent a turn moving, so if he had a jungle silver like us, he could have founded ON it! Then he just needs to work a 1 commerce tile to reach 21 GNP (including the CRE bonus). If we'd seen our silver before settling, we might well have founded on it too. That's an incredibly strong start, as it would likely take ~50 turns post-IW to catch up in terms of raw beakers, and of course each beaker is more valuable in the early game. I also had another random note I wanted to post, but will get to it later since ... uh ... I forgot what it was.

I'll try and post an updated "Option 2" and the best Agri>Bronze>AH start I could work out sometime this afternoon/evening (Pacific Standard Time).

[RefSteel]

Okay, some C&D-style information, just to prove we can: The Incans, one of the game's giant four-person teams (the one we've taken to calling "Team RBP2" - and which was soliciting a fifth[!] team member) had a score increase to 30. As best I can figure, this means their capital grew to size 2. Now, it's only been 8 turns, so they had to be building a Quechua (or barracks or stonehenge - let's go ahead and guess it's not a monument) and had to spend at least 6 of those 8 turns working a 3-food tile, so the Q (or whatever) only has 8-10 hammer invested. Uh ... why did they do this?

Well. The immediate reaction of some would be to pull out the pungent-weed smiley, and laugh at them for growing onto unimproved tiles while acquiring neither a critical early worker nor a scouting/defensive unit. I prefer to assume there's method to their (seeming) madness though. What do they gain that way? Well, they ARE getting defenses; they can now switch to a worker and still be able to build a 2-turn Quechua - even a 1-turn one if they micromanaged their opening right to get zero food surplus and 10 hammers in the Q - in case of emergency. Plus, their leader's expansive. Unlike us, they probably didn't have a forest-plains hill within sight when they founded their city (ours is in our third ring, but was in the starting tile's BFC) and so could gain no Expansive bonus for their worker - Civ's annoying rounding habits make 3.75 hammers come out to just 3. By growing to size 2, they can work (say) a plains forest and the equivilent of our sheep tile (or any 3f/h tile that includes at least one hammer really) for 6 total food/hammers per turn (5 base + 1 for expansive since at least 4 of them are hammers). This gets them a worker on turn 18 - meaning they trade three worker turns for growth to size 2 and a Quechua almost finished and ready to be resumed right away. Pungent weed? I don't think so. Those guys are crazy like about a denful of foxes.

If I had time on my hands (or had a team of four like them such that at least one of us could log into the game at almost any time) and was keeping careful track of demographics screen, I could do analyses like this for every team, and figure out exactly what they're most likely doing. Maybe if it's obvious and interesting, I will for more of the teams. For the most part though, I'd rather just play the game.

Also, I had another look at the victory screen, and our land percentage (now with 21 tiles in our cultural borders) is 0.52% (almost a ninety-eighth of the way to domination!) which is consistent with my estimate of ~4100 land tiles. Once again, a normal Huge Oasis map would be closer to 4500 land tiles, but I assume the sea was widened, possibly to make room for astro islands (or that an equivilent sea to the one at the north end of the map was added to the south, if the map was left "flat" or made cyllindrical instead of going with torroidal wrap). I mentioned to Maniac in chat, by the way, that the Oasis mapscript sticks everybody in a pair of ~horizontal lines along the fertile strips north and south of the desert (though again, Sullla and company may have moved people around) but that's not QUITE true: In the 17-civ map in which I've built my current sandbox, two of the nine empires in the south are more or less directly north and south of each other; this might be a coincidence, or it might be that the map likes to set things up that way if you feed it too many civs. I also must have misread the distances on the first map I generated: For the most part, distances between civs in my sandbox are basically similar to in RBP2 in both the north AND south, with the "17th" civ in the south, making part of that lone N-S pair. That doesn't sound very balanced to me: Two civs with three neighbors each, and 15 with two apiece - plus one that is effectively landlocked to 16 that will have coastal access in case of torroidal wrap or an extra southern sea - so I suspect civs WERE moved around if the map spit them out this way; fjords and/or mountain ranges may even have been raised to increase the land distance between civs on the "crowded" side of the map. In fact ... hmmmm ... there are more mountains together than I'd expect on an Oasis map to our northeast ... and again to our west. I wonder if that means anything.

(Why do I always come up with this stuff a couple turns AFTER we'd have a chance to take advantage of it?)

(And by "take advantage of it" I obviously mean "embarass ourselves by discovering that I'm wrong.")

Micro stuff below.

[RefSteel]

We're actually going to have a major decision to make in three turns: AH or Bronze Working? You already know my opinion, but let's see if we can at least get some more ideas out there and make an informed decision. BW gets us closer to real units, at least in theory: If we find ourselves next to Krill, and he's planning a War Chariot rush, Agri>Bronze>Hunting lets us get Holkans out for a credible defense before even HE'S likely to have a proper army ready (unless he has horses in his BFC). We're probably not next to Krill though, and for the record, I'm not convinced he's planning to rush anybody unless he sees an open invitation. Aggressive Maya also might not be his first choice, and we might be able to direct his attention elsewhere just by showing up at the diplo table willing to play his game. If we're one of the allies he maneuvers into doing his bidding by Machiavellian means, that's better than being one of the enemies to whom he does the same! (Note for those who don't know me: The preceding sentence needs to be read with a big, silly grin, and not taken too seriously.) If someone else wants to try a normal-chariot rush, again, they shouldn't be aiming at aggressive Maya, and we should be able to deal with it by diplomatic means. I don't expect to be a target ... at least, not before we found our third city.

AH, by contrast, reveals horses, but doesn't allow new units until we get the Wheel. I like chariots a lot, especially once the barbs start showing up with axes, and we need roads to connect our resources properly anyway - but it also comes with another advantage: We get Bronze earlier by teching AH first than we'd get AH if we started with Bronze - and AH+Wheel is actually FASTER than BW+Hunting; it's just that we'd also need time to hook up horses before chariots could roll out. The main reason I like AH first though is that Sheep tile. Getting a pasture up on that thing makes EVERYTHING go faster and better for our civ. The reason all my micro-plans have assumed Agri>AH>Bronze so far is that I was having trouble coming up with an Agri>Bronze plan that was even competitive.

Well, here's what I finally DID come up with. I didn't say it was pretty. (Warning: Wall o' Micro-Text ahead!)


Option 5: Ever tried a Farmer's Gambit on Emperor in MP? No? Well, why not? Let's just have a look at some BW/size-2 insanity! Now, more experienced players may know a way to do better, but I think this is the fastest I can get a Settler out without running our civ completely into the ground, and while actually completing a Warrior. Yes, that's Warrior, singular. I'm not at ALL convinced that this is actually BETTER than Option 2 ... but it's FASTER all right! Well, faster to the first Settler anyway. Note, I did NOT say "to the second city." If I want to claim THAT, I have to ask myself one question. Just ... one ... question:

"Are you feeling lucky ... punk?"

T11: Agri hits. Start Bronze Working.
T15: Worker complete; start Warrior. Worker moves to corn and farms. Fierias works plains forest.
T16: Fierias works sheep.
T19: Farm complete. Fierias works corn.
T20: Worker moves 1W to the grassland hill.
T21: Worker mines.
T22: Fierias grows to size 2, works corn+sheep, and starts Worker (Warrior on hold - note it can be built in one turn in case of emergency).
T24: Mine complete; Fierias works corn+mine.
T25: Worker moves 1E-1NE to grass hill.
T26: Worker mines for a turn, but his orders are immediately CANCELED!
T27: Worker moves 2S to grass river forest.
T28: BW hits! Start Animal Husbandry. Worker chops.
T30: Worker2 complete; start Settler (Warrior still on hold). Worker2 moves 1S to river grass forest. Worker1 chop complete.
T31: Worker1 moves 1W-1SW to river grass forest. Worker2 chops. Fierias resumes Warrior, working mine+plains forest (Settler on hold).
T32: Warrior2 complete; Fierias resumes Settler, working corn+mine. Worker1 chops. Warrior2 moves 1SW to Worker1's grass river forest.
T33: Worker2 chop complete. Warrior2 moves 1S to plains forest.
T34: NOTE: ORDER OF WORKER ACTIONS WITHIN THIS TURN MATTERS! Worker1 chop complete. Worker2 moves 2W to grass hill. Warrior2 moves 1S to grass river forest in neutral territory.
T35: Worker1 moves 1S into a plains forest. Worker2 mines. Warrior2 moves 1SW to plains river forest.
T36: Settler complete! Start Worker(!) REVOLT TO SLAVERY! Settler moves 1SW-1S to Worker1's plains forest. Worker1 chops. Warrior2 fortifies in place.
T37: Settler moves 1SW-1S to plains forest. Worker1 chops.
T38: Settler and Warrior2 move 1SW to sugar together. Worker2 mine complete. Worker1 chop complete.
T39: Worker2 moves 1NW to plains river forest. City2 built ON sugar, starts Monument, works plains forest. Worker1 moves 1SW-1S to City2's plains forest. Fierias starts a Warrior (Worker on hold).
T40: Worker1 chops. Worker2 chops.
T42: Fierias resumes Worker (Warrior on hold). City2 works floodplains. Worker1 chop complete. Worker2 chop complete.
T43: Worker3 complete at Fierias; resume Warrior. Monument complete at City2; start Warrior. Worker1 moves 1SW-1S to a floodplains. Worker2 farms for a turn; Worker3 moves 1W to Worker2's river plains tile and farms for a turn; both Workers' orders are then CANCELED!
T44: AH (finally!) complete; tech choice TBD based on in-game situation. Warrior complete at Fierias. Worker1 farms. Worker2 & Worker3 move 1NW to sheep and pasture. Fierias is size 2 with 10 hammers of overflow and16 food in the box; its corn is farmed and two of its hills are mined, with a pasture due on the sheep next turn and a head start on a couple of less-important improvements. City2 is size 1 with 1 hammer in a unit, 1 culture, and 14 food in the box. It has no tile improvements, and won't for some time to come, but it's still just T44. We have 5 beakers of overflow into our next tech, and our military advisor reports 3 Warriors (minus any who've been eaten - and note that one of them was just finished this turn!) and 3 Workers. Note that to this point, as an Aggressive/Financial civ, we have JUST completed our THIRD melee unit (INCLUDING Yalara!) - and NEVER yet worked a single tile that gets our financial bonus. Not saying it's the end of the world; just pointing it out. Pottery is a long way away, especially if we have to grab Hunting for Holkans first.

By the way: Why are we founding in that spot? Well, we're probably not; Copper or Horses will be the main determining factors for our next city or two. But that as-yet hypothetical city absolutely rocks. It's planted ON sugar, meaning the city square itself is a 3/1/1 tile. It has two floodplains in its first ring, at least SIX in its BFC, plus a desert hill gold and two or more riverside grasslands (4 plus a River Rice post-ironworking). This is going to be a commerce monster when it finally gets up to speed. Does that make it worth sacrificing the capital's development, our research rate, and our military to get it built five turns faster? I say no, but I'm just one person, and still very new to the game. You'll have to tell me. (If only I could be sure a panther wouldn't gobble the settler who's supposed to found the thing....)


And finally, my favorite choice, slightly tweaked and extended, to show you what I like so much about it:


Option 2: I know, I know. But have you looked up the settler times for RBP2? Turn 42 isn't early, for sure - but it really isn't that late. Remember that game was on a lower difficulty than this one, and we're not India, nor Expansive, nor Imperialistic, nor even Creative. At size 4, working all improved tiles, with several more forests still to chop, we'd be able to churn out more workers, settlers, and units rapidly. How rapidly, you ask? Welllll...

T11: Agri hits. Start Animal Husbandry.
T15: Worker complete; start Warrior. Worker moves to corn and farms. Fierias works plains forest.
T16: Fierias works sheep.
T19: Farm complete. Fierias works corn.
T20: Worker moves 1W to the grassland hill.
T21: Worker mines.
T22: Fieras grows to size 2, works corn+sheep.
T24: Warrior2 complete; start Warrior. Mine complete. Fierias works corn+mine.
T25: AH hits; choose Bronze Working. Worker moves 1W to sheep and pastures. Fierias works corn+(unimproved)sheep.
T27: Fieras grows to size 3, works corn+sheep+mine.
T28: Pasture complete.
T29: Warrior3 complete. Start Warrior. Worker moves 1SE onto river plains forest.
T30: Worker moves 2NE to grass hill.
T31: Worker mines.
T32: Warrior4 complete; start Worker. Fierias grows to size 4, works corn+sheep+mine+river grass hill (the one being mined).
T34: Mine complete. Fierias works corn+sheep+mine+mine
T35: Worker moves 1S to river plains and farms.
T36: Worker puts a second turn into a farm, but his orders are then CANCELED!
T37: Worker2 complete; start Settler. Worker1 moves 1SW-1S into a river grass forest; Worker2 moves 1SW into a different river grass forest.
T38: BW hits! Tech choice TBD based on game situation. Both Workers chop.
T40: Both chops complete.
T41: Worker1 moves 1NE to grass river forest. Worker2 moves 1S to plains forest.
T42: Settler complete; start Worker. Workers both chop. Settler moves 1SW-1S into Worker2's plains forest. REVOLT TO SLAVERY!
T43: Two warriors should be or arrive on the river plains forest 1SW-1S of Settler. Settler moves to join them there.
T44: Settler and both warriors move 1SW onto sugar. Both chops complete. If Hunting tech was chosen after BW, Hunting completes, and we can train Holkans.
T45: Worker3 complete; start Settler. City2 built ON the sugar, removing the jungle, and starts a monument, working the river plains forest. Worker1 moves 1E to river grass forest. Worker2 moves 1SW-1S to City2's river plains forest. Worker3 moves 1W to river plains forest.
T46: All three Workers chop.
T47: If The Wheel was chosen after BW, the tech completes, and we can train Chariots when/if we get horses hooked up. Yes, this takes increased city maintenance into account, with some leeway in case my sandbox underestimated. (Unlikely; I've got it on Toroidal wrap, so if I'm wrong about the real map, our tech rate might be a little better than I expect.)
T48: All three chops complete. City2 works floodplains.
T49: At Fierias, Settler2 complete!! At City2, Monument complete. Fierias is size 4, working farmed corn, pastured sheep, and two mined grassland hills, with 2 food in the box and 8 overflow hammers, allowing it to build another worker in 4 turns without another chop or whip (or it can build barracks and/or more military, of course, allowing it to grow to size 5 while one of its workers mines another grass hill for it to grow onto). City2 has ten food in the box, no overflow hammers, and no improved tiles, but workers are available to help with that. Still, that city is obviously behind in its development in comparison to an option that builds it sooner. We're also ~40ish beakers (depending on how accurately my sandbox reflects city maintenance costs) into Pottery if we beelined it after BW. If we take Option 5, by contrast, T49 will see us still working on whatever we chose right after AH, even if it was Hunting. "Option 2" also means we more scouting sooner, and a greater probability that enough warriors have survived to at least handle MP duty. It's also in the best position to start building more serious military, at least among the plans I've been able to devise. Yes, our first settler has to wait until T42 - but our SECOND one is out on T49, with a reasonable number of workers and (depending on how many have been eaten) a non-hopeless military. Plus, BW and AH are both finished in time for us to make the most informed decision about where to SEND both Settlers.

Okay, I'm almost done with my pitch now, but: Finally, and least importantly, a good if hilarious omen: Remember that hill I'm so worried about, just south of Silver Jungle? Well, I had to reload my first attempt to sim the last seven turns of "Option 2" because the mine on that hill popped its OWN Silver resource around T45! Needless to say, if THAT happens in the real game, we're golden. (Errrr ... silvery.)

[RefSteel]

As you can probably tell, I still believe "Option 2" is our strongest play. Nevertheless, I could be wrong, and it certainly may be possible to improve on any or all of my plans. Just because it's the best I could come up with doesn't mean it's optimal. If one of you can do better, let me know! (Obviously talking to Maniac and Cull here; I'd love feedback from the lurkers, but by "feedback" I mean things like, "You talk too much, Ref! Your pictures are fine, but post fewer words in between!" or "Post more numbered microplan options, no matter if they're competitive! I just can't get enough of these things!" Lurkers suggesting their own alternate microplans would be slightly insane - as well as probably being affected by spoiler information, no matter how unconsciously.)

[Maniac Marshall]

Sorry, but I was exhausted when I got home about 6 hours ago and promply passed out. I just got up long enough to check in. I should be awake and alive after work tomorrow 8PM EST, and I might even check in at lunch, but since our next move is obvious... I'm going back to bed for now.

[Cull]

Option2 is far more prefered for me.

[Cull]

The four man team now have a score of 36. Don't know what this means.

[RefSteel]

No problem, Maniac; I hope you enjoyed your vacation!

I played turn 9 (our tenth move). Here's the latest image, hot off the presses.



I guess that can happen naturally. Notice yet another Oasis in the desert, by the way. Like I said, desert =\= no-man's land on an Oasis script.

Nothing in the events log. No barbs in sight. No contact yet.

[RefSteel]

The four man team now have a score of 36. Don't know what this means.

Yeah, one of the four-player teams - the one I mentioned yesterday. This means they discovered a tech in the interturn. They probably can't be generating more than 10-11bpt (including the "free" beaker) without something crazy like an oasis tile in their BFC (they can't have settled ON a jungle silver or the like because they founded on turn zero). They're Inca, so they start with agri+myst. Hunting and Fishing are too cheap to research in 9 turns, and AH and Wheel are too expensive at that tech rate, so we're looking at Mining. Like I said, if we really, really want to, we CAN do C&D.