[Spoilers] Old Human Tourist: Empress of Azteca

[spacetyrantxenu]

My complaint is that the GA was sold/given to win the game. Lots of players, probably including me, made illegal diplo offers during the game at one time or another. But most players didn't give someone else a push across the finish line. I believe that is what Fintourist is referring to as "ruining" the outcome of the game.

Krill, just because something is legal, or not expressly forbidden, doesn't always mean it's cool to do it. You've certainly been around long enough to know that. You've been the administrator for these games before, you know the trouble that comes from exhaustive rule sets and how people can try to find loopholes in extensive rule sets to gain advantage. As an alternative the community went the other way after PB7 and tried playing using minimal rule sets with the understanding that more explicit rules wouldn't be needed if everyone played fairly. Looks like we're going the other direction these days, back to legality and trying to find the line so as to not cross it, rather than trying not to walk so close to it in the first place. That comment isn't directed specifically at you, it's more of an observation I'll make in general, though your post spurred the thought. Maybe Fintourist and I are the vocal minority here, but I suspect that many players would prefer to play with fewer rules being necessary to govern a game. But the players themselves have to not seek to exploit the rules, or the intent of the rules, for that system to work. Finding it OK to do things in games because they aren't explicitly forbidden when they are, at best, grey areas and debatable actions, that would represent a shift from what I would assume is the norm among most of our players.

[Krill]

I prefer the minimalist, more relaxed atmosphere as much as the next person, moreso perhaps because I've been that admin.

The issues raised though are not ones I can take seriously at this point. I'm probably going to be one of the more vocal proponents for banning unit gifting in these larger games, but a blanket ban isn't really the same issue as trying to police the shades of grey that have occurred in previous games with stupendously large rulesets.

I think it's unreasonable to objectively complain about a GA sale due to the turn it occurred. I think that given BGN tried to buy Plakos great people and Plako failed to sell them around the same time, it's disingenuous to say that Joeys sale alone was an issue given just how widespread those sales seemed to be amongst the leaders.

Fin, OH, for you:

[GermanJoey]

I didn't ruin anything.

I think this is the intractable point of contention. You seem to find it impossible that anyone could disagree with you on this point.

DURRRRRR

[Fintourist]

I think it's unreasonable to objectively complain about a GA sale due to the turn it occurred. I think that given BGN tried to buy Plakos great people and Plako failed to sell them around the same time, it's disingenuous to say that Joeys sale alone was an issue given just how widespread those sales seemed to be amongst the leaders.

The thing is that we have no visibility of other illegal/shady deals so that we can't object until after the game. Someone should have told us too that following the rules isn't a requirement..

And yeah reg your previous point: Rule set makes it legal to gift as many artists and gold and units as one pleases. Personally I just find it pathetic behavior to from a non-contender to decide a winner because he prefers another contender over another (and in this case most likely due to a map that he is not satisfied with).

Let's say that we both play PB27 and it has same rules as this game. We haven't really had contact in the game, I've screwed up my game, but you are competing neck to neck against player X. Then I remember that you have annoyed me in some thread and decide to send all my gold, units, great persons and whatever to player X (maybe I get horses in return because my funny alternative objective is to have as many horse resources as possible) and you lose. In my books that's not appropriate behavior, bad sportsmanship and in reality I would not do it.

The above is not much of an exaggeration compared to GJ's artist sale - you can't really gift anything more valuable than a victory. The fact that TBS wanted to win with the help of that artist is disappointing, but it's easy to understand that the temptation is high.

[Krill]

I think it's unreasonable to objectively complain about a GA sale due to the turn it occurred. I think that given BGN tried to buy Plakos great people and Plako failed to sell them around the same time, it's disingenuous to say that Joeys sale alone was an issue given just how widespread those sales seemed to be amongst the leaders.

The thing is that we have no visibility of other illegal/shady deals so that we can't object until after the game. Someone should have told us too that following the rules isn't a requirement...

Yet the lurkers didn't think so, and you know just how much we rely on lurkers to police actions that may be questionable. It's how these games work because we aren't able to have full time referees/admins, and it's not like when we have had admins that's worked any better.

And yeah reg your previous point: Rule set makes it legal to gift as many artists and gold and units as one pleases. Personally I just find it pathetic behavior to from a non-contender to decide a winner because he prefers another contender over another (and in this case most likely due to a map that he is not satisfied with).

Gift and sale are different, but I can't see how retroactively saying that selling an artist is wrong, and doesn't matter what turn it is sold. Yes, someone is going to lose. The value of the win or loss in a game of civ is in the game that was played and the choices made.

Let's say that we both play PB27 and it has same rules as this game. We haven't really had contact in the game, I've screwed up my game, but you are competing neck to neck against player X. Then I remember that you have annoyed me in some thread and decide to send all my gold, units, great persons and whatever to player X (maybe I get horses in return because my funny alternative objective is to have as many horse resources as possible) and you lose. In my books that's not appropriate behavior, bad sportsmanship and in reality I would not do it.

Demonizing Joey, or anyone on the forum, doesn't help your case. If you sell a resource, you sell it to the highest bidder, even if the bidding process is when two people fight and you see whom you can take the most land off, or whom gives you the most gold for a great person.

The above is not much of an exaggeration compared to GJ's artist sale - you can't really gift anything more valuable than a victory. The fact that TBS wanted to win with the help of that artist is disappointing, but it's easy to understand that the temptation is high.

Boldly tried to buy great people off Plako. He just wouldn't sell them. Can't be bad for one and not another. I'm in the camp that you lost fair and square, even if you did play such a brutal, efficient game.

[Fintourist]

Yet the lurkers didn't think so, and you know just how much we rely on lurkers to police actions that may be questionable. It's how these games work because we aren't able to have full time referees/admins, and it's not like when we have had admins that's worked any better.

I wonder if lurkers even remember the rule at that time. I haven't read the thread closely yet, but I don't see anyone reminding about the communication rule. I don't think that breaking all the possible rules as long as lurkers don't correct them is the correct policy. I would have imagined that a game-deciding rule break would be important enough to be corrected also afterwards.

Gift and sale are different...

Demonizing Joey...

To the first paragraph: We both agree that gifting and selling were both technically allowed in this game when conducted without illegal diplo offers.

My point is that Joey knew that he is gifting a win. I guess we disagree here, but to me that is just really low.

Boldly tried to buy great people off Plako. He just wouldn't sell them. Can't be bad for one and not another. I'm in the camp that you lost fair and square, even if you did play such a brutal, efficient game.

Those trade offers weren't ok and if BGN would have won through something like that it would have been similarly lame. Luckily in this case plako remembered the rules / did not want to sell anything + 1 GP from plako would not have been as important as the discussed GA was.

[GermanJoey]

Actually, I didn't know that the single artist by itself would make such difference because I didn't understand how badly you were bogging down TBS with espionage missions. That's something that you're inventing after the fact.

If you look at TBS's thread, his estimated victory date on T256 was still T268 (http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthrea...#pid548756), which is the same as what he communicated to me a couple dozen turns prior. This was before y'all really started ratcheting up your EP efforts. By T260, I had no reason to believe that the turn estimate would be significantly different, although I did know he was rebuilding some cathedrals. I had assumed it would make a difference of no more than a turn or two. You had not even launched your ship yet! Once dtay declared on you, I honestly thought that TBS had won no-contest. To say that I knew that a single artist would make such a difference back then to the point of "gifting a win" is totally disingenuous.

[Qgqqqqq]

You can't in the same post say that Joey was selling the artist and gifting a win. Sure, in absolute terms we must say that winning is a binary thing so nothing else is relevant - but obviously there must be consideration given to some realm of play whereby one who cannot win is still granted agency to continue acting. To say that one may not trade with a potential winner, or may not do so for one potential winner and not another is frankly absurd, and wrangling over OB offers to Dtay at t100 (for example) are a logical extension.

To me, Joey is judged by his actions and intentions. There is nothing inherently wrong with partaking in a trade with a gamewinner, as mentioned above. His intentions seem, by and large, pure and I am prepared to accept that he was motivated primarily by the benefits of such a trade to his own self.

(If he ought to have done anything else, than IMO it would be to offer a trade to Old Harry and try and bargain with the two for it. But as he didn't initiate the trade, I don't see that as being particularly wrong in him to deny.)

[Fintourist]

Sigh. There is nothing pure in GJ's intentions. Just go around reading his attacks towards OH reg PB25. He got his revenge. OH is probably mature enough to not care too much, but at least I now hope that I had never participated in this game.

Enough for today, enough of this farce. If OH has energy to play the showdown which TBS with sportmanship offered, great. But this game is pretty much dead.

[Krill]

The PB25 map is atrocious, and I said before the game went live that that specific start was screwed. I can even post the chat log.