[SPOILER] Krill rambles on

[Krill]

Other really big advantage to huge hammer driven capital: I can go for TGLH with this start, and that's something the forests are worth saving for. Not counting the ivory forest or the forest chopped for the granary, there are 5 forests. So that's a lighthouse and TGLH in something like 9 turns from scratch...and a guaranteed GM, which is like instant Currency or a convoluted Bureaucracy (Need Currency, CoL, MC and can't research Monarchy).

[GermanJoey]

Looking again at the start, worker at size 2 maybe more useful because the delay in growth to size 2 and the timing of the pasture don't sync up great. anyway, delaying the profit from improving the tile, so the loss is something like 3 yield which gets made up from working any tile at size 2 (the ivory just increases the "profit"). But growth to size 3 takes 4 turns, growth to size 4 takes 4 turns, growth to size 5 takes 4 turns...whipping for 1 pop adds in a bit of delay compared to other starts as this capital maxes out at 7 food surplus because of the tiles. So repeated whips aren't that great.

Second option:

Fishing eot T3> Hunting eot T6> BW eot T18> The Wheel eot T20> Pottery eot T26, work boat eot T4, grow @2 eot T9, worker eot T16, OF worker T17, then grow on warriors and build the worker to close to 59/60, Whip worker T26, OF a minimum of 36 hammers into Granary T27 plus 1 chop and get a granary with 2 workers. Grow to size 3 eot T29-ish. Settler due T36 with no additional chops. Use W1 to chop southern hill forest whilst mining.

Some micro would need tidying around how long to build the worker at size 2 before growing, because waiting until the cow is pastured allows growth in 3 turns with no spare food, growing earlier takes 4 turns, and how that affects later growth. But it gives 2 workers and solves the growth issue, but the commerce is damned close. Pottery needed by eot T26 at the latest.

Are you forgetting that you made wb buildable without needing fishing?

[Krill]

No, but you can't work water without having Fishing. So even going work boat first, you have to go Fishing as the first tech.

[GermanJoey]

true, but you can start the wb at t0, not 4.

[Krill]

Those dates are teh finishing turns.

[Krill]

Having slept on it, work boat> growing on warrior> worker at size 2> whipping second worker and overflowing out a granary will probably be what I'll do for the simple reason sharing food resources is a bitch with this start, and I wouldn't have the necessary warriors to defend multiple cities spread across 5-6 tiles. I wouldn't have the workers to improve multiple cities either. The question is if I can vary the MM to get warriors out a bit sooner because I always end up leaving workers on 10/15 or 12/15 for a few turns, because the build times has to mesh with the research times for Pottery. I know the first warrior can't be done without delaying the first worker a turn, which isn't worth it, but the second and third warriors it should be possible.

[Krill]

Turns out micro is pretty good for the granary plan, using avoid growth to grow eot T29, and granary completed eot T28, with warriors built eot T17 and eot T21 (after finishing the first worker and then going into the second worker when the second warrior is finished. It matches up with the Pottery timeline and it does not require anything special to work until T17.

There is enough slack in the system that using a second forest chop to seed the settler is worthwhile (so the capital can get back to growing ASAP and "recoup the lost hammers" by reaching size 6 and 7 quicker). That gives settler eot T34 with a double whip. Due to the amount of hammers available, it's trivial to overbuild warriors thus either building a barracks or researching Archery (or getting lucky with copper for spears) seems wiser. I think that archers would be the way to go, but a galley or light house is interesting (if the aim is GLH anyway).

[Krill]

Brick, in case people bitch about wrong combinations, this is what people should have.

[Krill]

What would be a nice surprise on this start? Copper on the plains tile 41 of the settler would actually be quite interesting, because moving the workers over there and mining it isn't that straight forward. I'm not sure how the current meta game stands if players get capital copper, but on a 100*80 map with 23 players I don't think rushes are necessarily the right way to go, third parties should benefit too much so long as the map isn't 70% water. No way to find out for 3 weeks though.

[Krill]

Old Harry's feedback: Krill doesn't need a cow, remove it.