Posts: 23,405
Threads: 132
Joined: Jun 2009
Tier 2: Players that think they know what they are doing.
This is where rankings get tricky. Out of the 23 single teams and players here, I’ve got 20 left included me. There are 3 teams I just don’t know that I won’t rank (Nyles, TheWannabe and von Adler/tao tao), leaving 17. I don’t know how to split most of them, so I’m going to be arbitrary now.
The tier 2 eanking contains three players, and like the first tier is in no particular order.
Gavagai: Roosevelt (IND/ORG) of Mali
Gavagai has played in a few games here, subbed into PB18 but really played in PB22 where he took continental hedgemony but couldn’t quite win. Knows how to build an economy, and how to attack effectively, but he doesn’t understand how and why people react in to his actions ie lacks empathy (yeah, fuck off, I understand empathy). Comes from the Russian civ forum IIRC, and has Bacchus as a team mate in this game.
These’s not an awful lot to say other than that. I know Gavagai has played the first turn and not settled, the only person not to have done so. Given that everyone has settled for a coastal capital so far, I think Gavagai did it because he wanted double land food. This is REALLY interesting though, because Gav had one of the only 3 IND leaders in the game, and had the one that can rush GLH best. He has Mali so he is basically unrushable. Roosevelt is slow, perhaps even the definition of slow in terms of leaders, but at least he has synergy between teh UB and IND.
I don’t know what Gav is going to do. I have expected him to rush for GLH but I think he may lose that to anyone now. I know I’m reconsidering beelining it. Maybe get Mids. Other than that I think he has even fewer options beyond basic growth and see what happens with neighbours.
Commodore the storyteller: Suryavarman (EXP/CRE) of Ottomans
I’m never going to be able to describe what, how or why Commodore acts and plas the way he does on this forum, in a manner that does it justive. What I can write about is my views on his play styles that he employs, and the simplest way I can describe it is this: He plays like I play. He can read a map and the demographics screen and draw the same conclusions, and he will anticipate players strategies as well as anyone.
The difference between us is that I am more cruel. Commodore will employ strategies that make you want to give up a game, but won’t actually help him win. He will try to mind game you, and that is a very good weakness to be aware of. You beat Commodore being focused. You design a strategy and you beat him back one turn at a time and make him not want to fight you whilst you roll over him with a small tech or large production lead. Never give him an inch, not because he will capitalise on it, but because that is the frame of mind you need to keep.
The combination is one of the easiest to play in this mod. Settle wide-ish, with some overlap on food but never CxxC except for coastal cities. Go Writing>Maths>Currency and build half price libraries, hammams and markets to up the happy cap and commerce multipliers for large cities in the mid game. The only issue is trying to build granaries at full price, but that’s no different for the rest of us. Commodore just needs to set up a good hammer city to pump out settlers and he should be able to hit a point around T100 where he is just larger in most demographics than anyone else, and tries to maintain that from larger cities so he doesn’t have to duplicate the city improvements in multiple worse cities. Essentially, all the cities becomes jack of all trades cities although he will likely still specialise them in terms of cottages.
There is one more to come, but that will likely be tomorrow now.
Current games (All): RtR: PB80 Civ 6: PBEM23
Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6: PBEM22 Games ded lurked: PB18
Posts: 23,405
Threads: 132
Joined: Jun 2009
I'm going to have to look hard at a GLH rush here. It's not my favourite route but it needs testing.
Current games (All): RtR: PB80 Civ 6: PBEM23
Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6: PBEM22 Games ded lurked: PB18
August 21st, 2015, 19:28
(This post was last modified: August 21st, 2015, 19:29 by GermanJoey.)
Posts: 5,648
Threads: 30
Joined: Mar 2014
krill, now that you've settled i want to tell you that your "starting settler gets 2h plant no matter what" feature in this latest version of rtr mod is the biggest mapmaking pain in the ass in the history of ever. that's not to blame you, because i thought it was a good idea myself until i tried making a map with it in consideration. instead of just trying to balance a single capital bfc, for both the bfc and potential second city sites, strat resource accessibility, etc, we had to try to balance like 30 potential variations. per player. the task is maddening and i think single-handedly delayed the finish of the map, by itself, by multiple days.
Posts: 23,405
Threads: 132
Joined: Jun 2009
Yeah I'd rather see RtR never be played than revert that change. I also think that unless you let people move and settle for stuff like 4 food starts its probably overblown: the third food resource is actually not that important if peoplee move.
Current games (All): RtR: PB80 Civ 6: PBEM23
Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6: PBEM22 Games ded lurked: PB18
Posts: 5,648
Threads: 30
Joined: Mar 2014
the irony is that you're punishing the mapmakers that actually do try to make a balanced map. it complicates things so fucking much...
Posts: 23,405
Threads: 132
Joined: Jun 2009
How balanced can or should you make a map? My start with that change is OK, perhaps a bit below what I expect is the average start quality because of the 7fpt surplus being just on the edge of good enough. But I see two early happy, good chunks of forests and food. So it's OK. I don't think you've done a bad job on what was requested.
Current games (All): RtR: PB80 Civ 6: PBEM23
Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6: PBEM22 Games ded lurked: PB18
August 22nd, 2015, 03:28
(This post was last modified: August 22nd, 2015, 03:29 by GermanJoey.)
Posts: 5,648
Threads: 30
Joined: Mar 2014
well thank you very much! Moving the ivory was OH's idea, I believe, so all credit there.
keep posting those player reviews, they're fun to read.
August 22nd, 2015, 10:31
(This post was last modified: August 23rd, 2015, 07:17 by Krill.)
Posts: 23,405
Threads: 132
Joined: Jun 2009
OK then, a mid day update, the third tier 2 player in this game.
Krill, most hated person on RB: Monty (SPI/AGG) of China.
I'm going to give some thoughts on myself, or rather just those bits that are relevant to RB.
I've been on RB since June 2009, which is when RB started to run MP games (RBPBEM1 I lurked, and PB1 I played in). I've played in the few tech trading games that had full diplomacy, which are completely different types of games to what we play now, in every respect. I've played in quite a lot of games since then, but I've also got a fair amount of experience in playing MP and Ladder games in every era back in vanilla and warlords. On top of that, I was part of the beta team during the later stages of development of CIV (not from the very start like Sirian and Sullla), so basically I've been involved in the online civ community for quite a while. I don't think I'm being unrealistic when I say I've probably got as much experience as anyone in this game in online civ 4 game types; I'm not sure if it's something to be proud of either.
In terms of RB culture, I'm not one of the best players anymore (5 years ago I'd have been confident with that title but not anymore) and haven't been for quite a while. Players like mackoti, Seven and TBS I accept have a better understanding and feel for various parts of the game than I do, but in this game it's worth noting that I am the highest placed finisher from PB18 playing (Retep doesn't count ). Whilst I think I know how to play out pretty much any given start in a regular type of RB game to get into a good position, I am not that comfortable with playing from a position that does not have a food and territory lead from T75 onwards. I tend to prefer larger games, so anything less than 8 players tends to a tighter metagame were you have to compete more forcefully for first to bonuses, and I usually screw those kind of games up.
Further faults are that I'm not an amazing micromanager. I mean, I do it, but I often miss things if I don't have a sim, and I rarely use a sim past T50 due to lack of time. I am also reasonably easy to manipulate: I won't attack unless I have an exit strategy for a war, and I have specific aims (even if the aims vary from annexing or razing a single city to genocide). I'm not one for pointless wastes of hammers, so if someone borders me, is respectful in terms of not letting army size stagnate, plays defensive and holds the line, I'm going to look for somewhere more cost efficient to grow. This means I'm more likely to reach the end game in a good position, but it hurts my chances of winning if I start next to strong players. An example from PB18 is that I came up with a dot map and expansion plan (novice did the MM) that meant we could withstand dtay, but we were never able to attack him effectively until after T225 (taking Willow lake wasn't efficient). We managed to push him to the extent that we had about half, maybe a bit more of Whosits land, without fighting an offensive war to get it. By the end of the game I think we had over half the starting continent, not that it did us any good.
My strengths are fairly straightforward IMO. I don't tend to lose cities, and most people that invade me don't win. I think I have a good understanding of how to fight those really close battles such as in PB25 to kill Donovans stack when he declared war, which combines to to make me an unattractive target. Add that to the experience I have and some micro ability and it's perhaps easier to understand why I'm a decent player, but not top tier. Most people seem to think I lack empathy, but predicting players actions (or perhaps better figuring out what players can do to harm my aim in game) is something I think I'm pretty good at.
Anyone, onto the leader:
Monty was described by FinTourist as "The most enjoyable combination in the whole game". I don't know if I could disagree with that statement. SPI means that you have to be constantly looking for ways to abuse the free civic swaps to gain an advantage somewhere, so you are always engaged. Scales perhaps best of all the traits. AGG is a hodgepodge of effects, cheaper city maintenance means that growing that little bit wider is possible, and I like that. The cheap barracks don't help pop borders any quicker, it just saves having to waste hammers on monuments, essentially it's a delayed hammer saving and gives you an edge in defending or projecting power over land. AGG is about settling and holding land, or taking it from someone else, which works for me. Both traits are slow starters though, which is why I've focused so much on getting hte capital into a position to hammer out tons of settlers by growing it to the happy cap (current aim is size 7 with 2 happy resources), but also using a quick early granary to help with growth (more accurately covering the low fpt from the two food resources I do have).
China as the civ is worse than it used to be. The starting techs not only don't matter, but I need the two food techs I don't start with. Feels like a kick in the teeth TBH. The UU is one of the best in the game, but I'm going to have difficulty using it early, so finding applications for it will take a while, just from gaining more map knowledge. In many respects, I think I have a generally weaker leader/civ combo than other players, Augustus/Sumeria and Wang Kon/England are just stronger IMO, but it's interesting to play out.
My plans for this start have been explained above, but I'm actually considering Henge after the first settler. I can get it T44 via a 1 turn, whip overflowed worker and multiple chops, without much difficulty, but would put about 20 hammers in whilst growing after the first settler. Henge letting me settle wider, still have AGG units, focus on growing would help me get to a good point in the mid game, but the GP would either let me bulb Theocracy or possibly Shrine Christianity if I could research it. That would give me Theo, and then I wouldn't need to get Fuedalism for 2 promotion units, instead aim to get Machinery. I would generally prefer henge to GLH due to playstyle, but depending on what the map throws up I may focus on GLH more.
Current games (All): RtR: PB80 Civ 6: PBEM23
Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6: PBEM22 Games ded lurked: PB18
Posts: 23,405
Threads: 132
Joined: Jun 2009
Told a lie, eot T43 for Henge with total exposure being 11-29 hammers invested prior to the large dump of hammers on T43. If Henge were lost on T43, I'd have 94 hammers invested into the third settler with 3 workers down. Just need to ensure that two forests are chopped on T42 or T43 (ideally both T43, due to loss of about 2 hammers from overflow mechanics, and no more than 1 forest chopped on T42). The micro is based around whipping a worker at 58/60 for 1 pop and overflowing those hammers into Henge.
Henge for me ticks a lot of boxes. GLH would take longer to build, not because of the hammer cost per se (and the light house), but because I would need to grow to size 6 or 7 to build it, that means need to hook up the silver, so likely need to have 3-4 cities first. A more interesting idea is to revisit the micro to get Oracle, because with Pottery finished eot T26, Myst takes 4 turns, and then is it possible to get Meditation in 10 turns? Probably. Priest hood should be finished by around T45 with Pottery and BW researched. I already have worker micro in place to get 120 hammers down, what stops me from getting another 30?
The answer is that those 120 hammers, a quarter is built whilst regrowing in place of finishing warriors 4 and 5, and an Oracle beeline means I can't get those 30 hammers in that manner. So I'd take longer to build it (2-3 turns from per turn hammers just to cover the "prebuild" hammers that Henge has). And for what? MC? I'd rather have Henge earlier to help with growth than a tech I don't need early.
Current games (All): RtR: PB80 Civ 6: PBEM23
Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6: PBEM22 Games ded lurked: PB18
Posts: 12,510
Threads: 61
Joined: Oct 2010
(August 22nd, 2015, 10:31)Krill Wrote: Krill, most hated person on RB
Nonsense. You probably don't even make the top 10.
Maybe, maybe you can claim 'mildly disliked by most'.
EitB 25 - Perpentach
Occasional mapmaker
|