[LURKERS] PB27 Map & Lurking: Walking in a :weed: wonderland

[The Black Sword]

Tech cost scaling is around a 20b discount on each ancient era tech. Classical techs, eg. anything around the cost of Mathematics, are pretty much the same cost as before. The reduction in starting tech costs adds another 20b discount to each of the 6 starting techs. I think one of those discounts was badly needed, thinking about the nightmare of PB18 tech costs. In comparison the ToW games still feel like you have to prioritise what techs you want, you can't just have any ancient era tech whenever you need it. Combined they're probably too much though, imagine starting PB29 with 120 free beakers in overflow.

Btw, I think Krill and REM(and anyone else I may have missed) have given up the same opportunity cost they would have had in any other game by teching IW; Mathematics. The relative cost of the two techs is pretty much the same as before. The reason they're going for IW first is because they're invited(or forced) to do so by the map, not the tech costs.

[The Black Sword]

Oh and if you haven't already, check out the absolutely insane pink dot Krill is planning in his thread.

Then check out Wannabe's thread where he somehow managed to plant a city on this map without any 1st ring resources.

Krill just moved into the favourite spot I think.

[GermanJoey]

I think comparing total tech costs in PB27 to PB18 and PB20/PB29 is a very interesting idea. Let's assume a core ancient-era roundup, just for comparisons sake, of all the first row techs, plus Pottery, AH, BW, Archery, and Writing. Since we have no libraries, we can divide by the prereq bonuses to get the total income necessary to get all these techs.

PB18: (85*3+103*3) + (69+207+172)/1.2 + (138+207)/1.4=1184
PB27: 6*38+(174+75)/1.2 + (140+174+107)/1.4=736
PB20/PB29: 60+75+46+46+75+60 + (174+75+140)/1.2 + (107+174)/1.4 = 886

(note that I assume that with cheaper techs you can optimize prereq bonuses better, since you often don't "need" the techs as quickly)

So, a difference of 150 beakers between PB27 and PB29; about 10-12 turns of research around T50ish. A whopping 450 beakers between PB18 and PB27; about 25-30 turns of research! However, we also have to subtract our starting techs:

PB18(ag+wheel): 1184 - 206 = 976
PB18(mining+fishing): 1184 - 170 = 1012
PB27: 736 - (2*38) = 660
PB29 (fish or mining + wheel or myst): 886 - 60 - 75 = 751
PB29 (ag + hunting): 886 - 46 - 46 = 794

Now it's ~334 beakers for PB18 (about 20 turns of research, lets say), and ~110 beakers for PB29, 7-8 turns of research. So, fairly significant, but not as much as I thought. However, you can see how big a deal huts can be. Multiple players have found over 200 gold from huts; IIRC Borsche found like 220 gold PLUS got a tech, and that's just from the top of my head. That's about almost half of the income you need to complete the ancient era core... for free!

edit: I just remembered the +1 palace commerce given by the version of RtR mod that PB27 uses. By T50, that's another 50 beakers straight up. So, that saves another 3-4T.

[The Black Sword]

Good point, I didn't realise that all of the ToW games have had huts off, that would make a difference, and the Palace too of course.

There's probably some snowballing effect too, but that might effect hammers more than tech and move things the other way, hard to say.

[GermanJoey]

Arrgh, what the hell is this! AT mentioned in his thread that Moai was only 100h now, which isn't in the changelog, and frankly sounded insane to me. What the hell is this, Krill? Why is the one national wonder that everyone always builds ASAP now only 2/5 of its original price?

[spacetyrantxenu]

Ha, I hadn't noticed that before either. Mayhaps we should run some file comparisons to see if there are any other Easter eggs (or undocumented features). Building Moai on a border to solidify cultural control sounds like a good plan to me. It's cheap enough and at 100 hammers that's a great deal.

[spacetyrantxenu]

It's just a mistake, not an intended change.

Seriously? Moai is 100 hammers? Fuck no that's not intentional. Nor would any other fuck ups like that be intentional. EDIT: And if I thought it was a good idea for that to be in RtR then then-me was a fucking moron.

Fucks sake.

[GermanJoey]

So what do we do about it? Make an announcement in the tech thread or just close our eyes and watch?

[BRickAstley]

I don't think it merits a tech thread post.

[Mardoc]

Agreed with Brick. It's still just 1 hammer per tile, on generally less than 10 tiles which are mediocre to start with. Anyone who beelines for a Moai instead of, say, TWO 6F TILES AND COPPER ALL FIRST RING, is still making a mistake. By the time they have run out of better sites and have enough happiness to work a decent amount of coast, they should pretty much all have noticed.