Krill Khan has no time for nonsense! Is there any scenario where Gavagai puts off the assault on JR and focuses on you? The terrain doesn't favour Gavagai at all, your road system is better, there are no hills for him to safely travel with slow stacks. Wide front is a disaster.
Yeah, I'm not happy about my past behaviour either.
(December 23rd, 2015, 07:23)GermanJoey Wrote: Krill's new theory of civ, featuring horse monuments, horse markets, and horse monasteries. lookin' forward especially to the horse forges, where big burly men pick up horses by the legs and, swinging the beasts with all their might, beat molten copper into the shape of a chamber pot.
The Hippus were based on me. Kael just doesn't publicly admit it to save me hassle.
(December 23rd, 2015, 08:44)Kurumi Wrote: Krill Khan has no time for nonsense! Is there any scenario where Gavagai puts off the assault on JR and focuses on you? The terrain doesn't favour Gavagai at all, your road system is better, there are no hills for him to safely travel with slow stacks. Wide front is a disaster.
Interesting question. This is what I was figuring out before I planted Trevelyan: not just what Gav wants to do, but what he can do.
Gav had the opportunity to pull all of his units out from JR on T122, marching them through culture and slamming everything into my stack and city on T127. That would have been something like a 40 unit stack with zero collateral hitting a culture city. Gav wouldn't know what my stack composition would be ion that turn, and it could have been I had 8 CG longbows in the city, or I had that number of CKN and a few cats to just try and smash his stack. Turns out he would have run into maybe 7 or so spears and a few axes, plus the 20+ HA, but no collateral and no good city defenders. So I relied on uncertainty and the understanding that walking a slowmover stack through so many tiles of culture is just something you don't do, and it worked. I'm pretty sure I'd have run away from that stack, but it would have delayed the capture of JR until atleast T132 simply because of movement issues.
This scenario has now passed, because if he decides to pull his units at this point, he will run into the CKN. I'm saving gold for a tech beeline, but I sent a bunch of archers forward and could have upgraded them if necessary. Still can, really (I'd also have built wealth to enable more upgrades, quickest way to turn output now into immedaitely available good units, and removes the supply chain difficulty Mardoc pointed out earlier).
The largest issue that Gav has is that any approach to Trevelyan that doesn't actually come from the north east is along flatland, so he will always give me a reasonable opportunity to collateral and destroy his stack. Only solution is numbers, and tech superior units if I am slow to get out CKN and knights. If I try to push forward with any plan to take out Hank Williams 2, at that point I also take a lot of the highlands in that region, if I don't but still settle forward, then we end up in a interesting position where G2 longbows start being a bitch to remove form hills, and small stacks are costly to kill due to inefficient collateral options (although arguably China is better than most at that with CKN, knights are better still and everyone can get them).
This is why I'm still working out possibly options for dotmaps and moves around JR. Giving up JR doesn't have much cost for me, I am most interrested in HW2. Settling on Stone is a safe option, but need to push culture to ensure that I can put units on hills that Gav can't attack, kill and cover the survivors of. But the further forward I can push my culture, the more I threaten Gav and force him to invest in defending multiple front cities. Push too far though, and he instead just stacks up and tries to remove hte offending city. That gives me an opportunioty though, if Gav misjudges I can kill his stack and counter invade. If he just stacks up and doesn't commit, he forces a cold war and we both invest into military for no economic gain. Skirmishing over hills is just a method of draining hammers from one player to then brute force a front city open.
The other point here is that Gav has built SP. For a none SPI leader, this is basically a method of getting access to Theology without having to invest beakers into Theo. Especially good for a player that wants to get a Prophet for a shrine, and IND for a cheaper wonder, right? So why does a tech laggard want Theo when Vassalage is available? NOt like Gav is going to have access to any other civics: He wants to invest into colosseums for 10XP knights. How do you beat 10XP knights?
You beat 10XP knights by forcing that player to invade you, and you collateral them down, and murder them with whatever you have lying around. Collateral, the great equalizer, is hte answer to mass stacks and players that have more promotions than you. But I'm AGG, doesn't I get more promos? Not now, I am not getting maces because I can't get CS as that invalidates the Astro bulb. I need muskets, but that's too far away, and Engineering is off the beaten track albeit I really need the road movement. Pikes are specifically anti-mounted units, great against a guy with an HA stack, but shit against pretty much everything else.
I would need high strength units to remove longbows from hills, maces are the only real option, and this is exactly how you abuse high promo units: make collateral inefficient, put only a unit or two on hills and make it cost an opponnent at least 1 unit, probably 2, that costs more, to remove them. Threaten with the highly promoted unit to be annoying, threaten workers, force a defender to cover workers and not get fort bonus in cities.
And when an opponent doesn't react to kill the longbows, you put a slowmover stack with siege underneath them and slowly chip away at culture defense. And then you do this somewhere else. You abuse a wide front by trying to put pressure on multiple points and split a defenders attention and resources.
And you know what, I'm not playing that game. I don't have to, because I have more cities. I have more resources than Gav. yes, he has more MFG right now, but he will not in 15 turns, and I'll have Astro. And you know what that means, other than sending settlers to islands?
Settlers need military units as well. Some might just get diverted. And Aggressive maces are a very interesting unit to convey by boat.
And that is how I intend to handle Gav, from him threatening JR, to forcing him to send resources to areas other than this front so he can't threaten me.
Fuck this, play the entire turn and missed one crucial fact: Gav has 2 workers in his HA stack.
I shouldn't lose Trevelyan against 23HA, I have 15 in hte city and 4 spears plus another axe, but the unit positioning was based on him not being able to reach my settler and workers which he can, if he has 2 more workers in the fog...
(December 23rd, 2015, 17:43)Krill Wrote: Fuck this, play the entire turn and missed one crucial fact: Gav has 2 workers in his HA stack.
I shouldn't lose Trevelyan against 23HA, I have 15 in hte city and 4 spears plus another axe, but the unit positioning was based on him not being able to reach my settler and workers which he can, if he has 2 more workers in the fog...
I saw that, but thought you saw that earlier, damn
Yeah, I'm not happy about my past behaviour either.
It doesn't actually change as much as you'd think. He shouldn't be able to take Trevs through 4 spears (he has 23 attackers, I have 20 defenders), and the medic 3. He can retreat more easily but if I bomb and his units are on that stack they lose 1MP leaving culture so it delays them reaching HW2 and the attack goes ahead. He still needs to leave that hill tile on T126 and if he roads next turn I'll just burn a chariot to pillage the road if I don't want to bomb...and if he leaves the hill, I can always try and settle and bomb it myself. Roading that hill is a double edged sword. Roading and settling is out of the question if he wants to attack JR any time soon.
The only issue is that they could reach my settler/worker stack, so I've just moved the settler onto the stone tile. If Gav wants to attack to take out 2 workers, he can take 3 50/50 battles and I can kill his units on my turn. Annoying but not game breaking and I'll get a GG out of it so there's that.
Also figured out GPP plans, Astro by T140 plan is still more than possible. Pretty fucking easy, actually, so still sticking with previous timelines.
Alphabet at start of/before GA, then Compass and Optics by the end of the GA (actually a turn or two after due to GS issues I think) is trivial, running down food boxes then a turn of starvation in junk coastal cities isn't a problem. Then go find 3 commerce trade routes and spam a few settlers overseas whilst fighting Gavagai. Simples.
Golden age output is going to be underwhelming though, too much I want to do with only 8 turns of extra production and commerce. Still looking forward to what I can do with it.
OK, city micro plans. Assuming I can hook up incense, I can get an additional +1 happy in all cities without trading.
Need to give up the eastern hill to other city, cottage two plains tiles, get a lighthouse and work the plains hill with a windmill and that gives something like 16hpt. Forge gives enough happy then can get markets etc. Market before Forge works for happy as well, but lighthouse is preferable for the extra food and the coast is quicker to grow on than other items and does not require worker turns. I probably ought to go lighthouse>forge>market. The GA will only give 4hpt as the cow is given back shortly. Max size is dependent on the number of coast worked, but probably around size 13. So pretty close to that size already? Really don't think the lighthouse is that important then...
Ugh, minor cottage city. 5 plains cottages, one grass cottage, grass hill, pig. No infrastructure necessary beyond library, and can keep on building settlers because it only needs to reach size 8. Actually might make sense to build a few workers form here, whatever else happens I probably need to get another half a dozen workers out due to weird worker positioning. Maybe watermill the northern plains river tile, good tile to share.
Now turning into a hybrid city, windmills two hills, and cottage two grassland tiles (take third from Lightwood), and either cottage or watermill that shared river plains tile mentioned in last city. Size 15.
Take cottage and grass hill mine from The Exchange, copper mine, windmill two bare hills, watermill plains tile. Size 14. Hybrid city. Forge.
Hardest city to find a good setup for. Farm bare grassland and two plains tiles. Windmill over plains hill mine, lumber mill tundra forest. Move off cottage, grass hill mine and lake, max size 11, 26hpt without Emancipation (which is default civic for me). 30+ worker turns needed, this is probably going to be very late. Decent city to use to push out settlers once Astro hits. Forge and courthouse built in GA.
Max size 11. Need three more cottages completed, move off silver tiles. Market next. good candidate for illustrating the vagaries of lush maps with ICS.
Due to lack of food, windmill the fuck out of it and see what happens.
Will take the wheat back, but not until Caldon Docks is size 17 or it is hitting happy/health cap issues. Max size 19 on tiles but excess food means few specs available. Need all the buildings here. Or rather want all the buildings, due to being coastal probably going to have to nix super city idea and instead vhange plans for Milton and make that hte cuper city with the 15 cottages/silver tiles. Somewhere between sizes 13 and 22-ish.
Cottage city. Cottage everything except tile 47, workshops that, maybe cottage over later? Puts max size of size 10? Only needs flatland sheep, give up other food resources. Lighthouse is not on the cards here.
Swap off coast onto workshops at size 11, micro forge to finish on growth to size 12, take sheep when possible, max size 16, giving up grassland, plains hill mine and two coast to Caldon docks. Needs forge and market for happy. Workshop all flatland, mine plains hill, major port. 30 base hpt. Chemistry makes the numbers nice.
Workshop 5 grassland, mine plains hill. 24 base hpt. Decent hammer city. Size 14, needs incense and forge. Really need workers. Simples.
Oh god more headaches. Just going to stagnate at start of the GA, go forge>courthouse. There is no right way to setup Bloxwich, maybe stone quarry, plus plains farm for 28 base hpt at size 10.
Size 11 enables max hammers, 28 base hpt, growth occuring when possible to happy cap to pick up coast with a future quay for additional commerce. Court house and market completed in a GA (6 turns total). Quay is additional 2 turns. Guess I know what I want to happen here. Size 17 max.
Cottage everything. Finish a lighthouse. Work a few specs. Size 19. Need happy and health.
Minor specialist city. Building up Merchant points in GA in preparation for second GA. Giving up most tiles.
GS pump city for Astro, should be the 300 point city, due turn before end of the GA. Until then grow to happy cap. Oh wait, you're almost there...forge after courthouse. Probably quite limited options due to proximity of HAK and desire to push culture but know that really pisses off HAK and I don't want to do that.
13 water tiles, 14 land tiles (1 mine, 3 workshops), max size 17, need happy and health, 28 base hpt, growth until it gets there. Forge>market>courthouse but can't get much into the market by the end of a GA.
400 point GS, going to start accumulating points at size 11 due to happy cap limit. Need to workshop most tiles due to lack of hammers but that can happen after the GA, will work 8 scientists, and need to get to 397 gpp turn before Pelsall hits the 300 point GP. Finish the GP turn after the GA has ended. Need minimum 40 food in the food box at size 11 due to starvation.
Minor hammer city to deal with Gav. Chop the forge, workshop 2 grassland, 1 plains, mine two hills, keep clam and grass forest for 18hpt. Bad rounding, can't help it, need size 7 which Wolstanton is almost at. Trying to 2 turn cats so I ensure I have a siege stack to react to whatever happens.
Don't care. Only planted for safe-ish borders. Can pick up the two lakes once Chesterton is size 12, will be one of hte last cities to be develop.
OK, major micro (pun not intended) already present. Size 12 is aim. Fish, wheat, farm. 4 grass workshops, iron mine, 4 hill mines. 32 base hpt. Reaches size 12 eoT132 IIRC. I want to trigger the GA T133. That would push the hpt up to 43 base hpt for 8 turns. What I spend that on fuck knows, but beyond a courthouse I don't think anything is critical until HE and the Colosseum before that. Due to proximity to the front, not interested in one turning knights, rather 1 turning good slowmovers. Obviously through in the odd night, but not worth building pure knights here.
Lighthouse. Grow on coast and lake. Workshop everything. Become a hammer city. Build forge, quay and market. And court house. Max size 16-17.
OK, Take corn. Give up copper. Lots of watermills. Couple of farms and workshops. Hammer city. Max size 11, 32 base hpt with Emancipation. Going to take that long to reach size 11 and lots of worker turns with excess farms, which I don't want to soend, and don't have access to right now. Good job I'm going to be using Serfdom for a bit after popping the second GS for Astro.
Easy. Max size 14, but only need size 8 for max hammers, 22 base hpt. Probably go courthouse>forge in the GA, would only hit size 5 eoT132 Enough to work hte mines already down to push out that infra and then go back to growth afterwards.
Not like I can micro this city with 20HA sitting 3 tiles away. Growth, Pavilion and shitloads of artists is only plan that works unless Gav fucks off.
