RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Friendly Kittens (Ragnar of Maya)

[Maniac Marshall]

Assuming the next turn happens in the next 8 hours I can play it. After that... I can PROBABLY play in the late evening the next 3 nights, but I'm going to be at a con in Chattanooga, so 100% relying on me would probably be done at your peril.

BTW, we cant wait too much longer for at least 1 chariot, and it has nothing to do with MP issues, but rather everything to do with two legged barbs. While they are less likely to eat one of our exploring kittens, they are also known not to respect our boarders...

[Cull]

Assuming the next turn happens in the next 8 hours I can play it. After that... I can PROBABLY play in the late evening the next 3 nights, but I'm going to be at a con in Chattanooga, so 100% relying on me would probably be done at your peril.

BTW, we cant wait too much longer for at least 1 chariot, and it has nothing to do with MP issues, but rather everything to do with two legged barbs. While they are less likely to eat one of our exploring kittens, they are also known not to respect our boarders...

Sounds good, and in advance I will be GONE from 4:00 AM to 12:00 PM EST on Sat., so essentially I'll be gone the whole day.

We might need to rely on Ref then...

[RefSteel]

Not on a Saturday. I may have mentioned this already, but I can NEVER play on any Friday evening or Saturday morning or afternoon - often not until VERY late Saturday night. (9pm-11pm Pacific Time.) There are reasons I originally signed up to be a lurker/advisor/maybe-OCCASIONAL substitute!

Nevertheless, we won't miss a turn or anything. If absolutely necessary, we can let everyone know what's up so they don't get antsy, and then just not end turn tomorrow unless we're last and can play twice. We might even be last twice in a row if everyone else plays shortly after the turn rolls on Saturday, but those are the breaks.

This weekend in particular, I can play Friday afternoon (almost anytime before about 5PM PST), Saturday evening (only between 9PM and 11PM PST) and then I can probably cover us on Sunday. (I work all afternoon, but can play during my break - IF we know what we're doing!)

[RefSteel]

After hearing about Civ 5 being released, I'm REALLY worried about people in RBP3, and indeed all the PBEM and Pitboss games quitting the game to play Civ 5... I know I'll stay and play no matter what (Outside of Real Life Events), and I think you guys would stay as well.

If anybody quits and just stalls/destroys up the game..

Well, I'm definitely staying if Real Life doesn't intervene. My little netbook won't be able to touch Civ5's sysreqs. But yeah, if the game goes cold because of Civ5 coming out, that would be sad.

BTW, we cant wait too much longer for at least 1 chariot, and it has nothing to do with MP issues, but rather everything to do with two legged barbs. While they are less likely to eat one of our exploring kittens, they are also known not to respect our boarders...

They won't enter our borders until the world average is (I think) ~3 cities. Getting city2 out this quickly will actually ensure most teams CAN'T get city 3 out all that quickly. Nevertheless, I'm thinking of looking at a plan to hook the horses ASAP, get our first chariot on/by turn 55, hook the copper ASAP, and build granaries ASAP. This will come at the cost of early growth, commerce, and cottage growth, but could well be worth it in the long term or even mid term. My estimate was also off with the original plan: I underestimated Fierias. We'd have chariots on turns 58, 61 and 64. Like I said though, I'm going to look at speeding this up. It WILL affect worker movement on T41, and also our warrior actions in the west. (Prrrsha can do what she wants.)

[EDIT: All those ASAPs look funny, but "as soon as possible" is different for each one, as each has a different requirement before it becomes a possibility.]

[Maniac Marshall]

Turn Played. Here's a picture.

[RefSteel]

Okay, I ran through some sims. I'm liking the option of hooking both of our strat resources quickly and getting that first chariot out as soon as reasonably possible. The best plan I came up with sacrifices some early growth and research for hammers. (One less population in each of the satelite cities by T70 than in the Pure Economy pics I posted above, our first hamlet wouldn't appear until T71, and e.g. IW would be delayed by a turn if we went for it immediately after Hunting) I think it'll eventually come out ahead overall though, even without taking the possibility of earlier chariot-based contact - or the value of increased readiness for barbs/attack - into account. The hope would be that we can go a little lighter on total military in the T60-70 range, once we have a better idea of what we'll be facing. If we can get away with that (basically delaying our 3rd chariot for several turns once we have our first pair in play) we can have a granary in each city by T69. We'd probably get our third Settler around T76, and a sixth worker out of Pink (Pride Rock?) two turns before that, with a total of four chariots and three warriors (minus any who get eaten between now and then).

Of course, all this is at least somewhat tentative. We won't know our actual maintenance costs until Pride Rock is founded, and if they're really excessive, they could delay pottery by a turn. I did my best to build some leeway into the plan, but it's hard to know the full impact of something like that.

So, that said: If we're going to go with the plan described, here's what we need to do over the next couple of turns, at least as I understand it:

Turn 41:
* Assuming no major barbarian threats preventing it (the lion we can see right now is not, by itself, a major barbarian threat) Chmeee (our southern worker) moves 1SW-1NW onto the plains forest hill where Jasana and Yalara are hanging out. Note that if there IS a major threat (e.g. the random number generator decided to kill Jasana at nigh-impossible odds, and there's a bear standing on our proposed pink dot site) some major consultation will be needed with the whole team, and we shouldn't do ANYTHING until we figure a new plan out.
* Toulouse, our northern worker, moves 1W to a river plains forest inside our BFC.
* In the East, if the currently-visible lion now visible is within striking distance of Prrsha (one space away on diagonal) she just fortifies in place. If the lion is still visible, but NOT adjacent to Prrsha, and no other barb animals are visible in that part of the world, Prrsha moves 1E into the forest between the stone and mountains. If the lion is no longer visible at all, Prrsha moves 1SE onto the stone. If some of the lion's buddies have shown up, we probably need to consult more and make up more creative forms of revenge against the pseudo-random number generator.

Turn 42:
* Our Settler finishes. Start another Worker.
* Assuming there's no immediate and deadly threat, both workers should chop, and then CANCEL their orders.
* REVOLT TO SLAVERY!
* Yalara, now fully healed, can move 1SW to the future site of Pride Rock, AKA Southern Pink, unless a barb that would pose an immediate threat to (possibly injured) Jasana is in sight.
* In the east, try to avoid moving Jasana onto flat unforested ground next to a barb. If possible, try to put her on a forested hill next to a single non-bear barb (e.g. the lion mentioned above). Of course, if she had a fight with the aforementioned lion on the interturn, she might need to heal, prior to promoting to Woody 1 next turn.
* The Settler moves 1SW-1W onto a river grass hill about halfway between our capital and the future site of Pride Rock.

I'll hopefully be able to post again (and maybe even look at the game or play a turn) later today. Let me know if you have any opinions, questions, or desire to see a more complete microplan!

[Cull]

Ref, that is great stuff there! After going into the game, there is one city spot that I think is AMAZING! To the east of our capital, there is a location with wines, rice, AND pigs, with tons of hills, and lots of hammer potential, plus the food to back it up!

Pink Dot/Pride Rock is far better with floodplains, and great terrain, but it is something to think about? A future military pump?

It has 11 (!) hills, rice, wines, and pig in its BFC. It has desert and peak tiles, but the hills plus rice plus wine plus pigs means it won't work those tiles until size 14, which is pig enough for a military pump.

[Maniac Marshall]

Ref, that is great stuff there! After going into the game, there is one city spot that I think is AMAZING! To the east of our capital, there is a location with wines, rice, AND pigs, with tons of hills, and lots of hammer potential, plus the food to back it up!

Pink Dot/Pride Rock is far better with floodplains, and great terrain, but it is something to think about? A future military pump?

It has 11 (!) hills, rice, wines, and pig in its BFC. It has desert and peak tiles, but the hills plus rice plus wine plus pigs means it won't work those tiles until size 14, which is pig enough for a military pump.

Yeah, it's called Yellow Dot/Kilrah. We've been talking about that spot for ages and even considering founding that BEFORE the Red/Sugar spot. That's going to hopefully be our HE city...

It's also on a river so it will one day have a levee too.

Actually, one east of the original yellow dot may be better. I know you guys are going to say 2 east is amazing, but 2 east is too far and wastes too much land we'd never use because of those peaks and I'm not going to be persuaded on that location.

[Maniac Marshall]

This is the area we're talking about.



I think the real decision is Yellow vs Grey. I know Blue has even more hills, but really, it's just TOO far since we have no way of really filling in between it and the capital. Also, keep in mind the vast majority of those hills are plains/desert hills, and wines isn't that much of a food bonus, so, while I haven't done a sim, I doubt there is enough food to power all those hills, unless we windmill some of them, at least until biology.

Yellow has 2 Riverside Grass, a Riverside Plains, and a Peak vs 2 Plains Hill, a dry plains, and a desert hill. The real difference are the river grass vs plains hills. It would, to me, be very painful to give up 2 riverside grass tiles for 2 plains hills, because with the peaks where they are, we're not going to be placing any city to grab those tiles if it isn't yellow, but I could be persuaded by one of you doing a side by side sandbox sim that shows that grey really is that much more productive (and it probably is...)

[RefSteel]

After going into the game, there is one city spot that I think is AMAZING! To the east of our capital, there is a location with wines, rice, AND pigs, with tons of hills, and lots of hammer potential, plus the food to back it up!

Pink Dot/Pride Rock is far better with floodplains, and great terrain, but it is something to think about? A future military pump?

It has 11 (!) hills, rice, wines, and pig in its BFC. It has desert and peak tiles, but the hills plus rice plus wine plus pigs means it won't work those tiles until size 14, which is pig enough for a military pump.

I agree: We definitely want a city up in that region! Pride Rock comes first to claim horses, and then Red Dot (yet to be named) for commerce, copper, and our first luxury resource (gold!) but our next city after that should almost certainly go up in those hills. From your description, it sounds like the city location you're talking about is 1NE of the pigs, right? That would be six tiles from our capital, in a valley surrounded by hills, so we'd have to be careful to ensure the spot is thoroughly "ours" before planting it in an MP game like this one. Maniac suggested "yellow dot" 2 tiles west of that one (i.e. closer to the capital) - a hilltop location grabbing pigs, rice, wine, and five hills (not counting the one on which the pigs are standing) of which two hills are of the grassland variety and the rest plains. Lots of forests to chop around there too. My main concerns with Maniac's site are that it "wastes" a grass hill forest by planting on it, and has hills "toward the front." I'm not sure we can improve on that though for a number of reasons, chief among which is "Krill Must Hate This Map Syndrome." (Not enough food for lots of choices.)

Let me show you what we're talking about here:



"Maniac's Site" and "Cull's Site" (assuming I understand their locations properly) are self-explanatory. "(Alt)" is the 1E spot Maniac mentions above, which does have some tactical advantages, but is a bit further away from the rest of our core. I do think Cull's spot is a little too far away - it'll be hard to reinforce to or from that location, and it will waste a lot of good tiles - but it would be a great spot outside the context of our overall dotmap. Also note my blue notes in the fog. I'm always leery of dotmapping stuff too close to totally unknown tiles, as resources revealed there could change our entire perspective on the region.

Also, in the Making Myself Look Foolish department: Remember a zillion years ago, when I decided this was an Oasis map on the basis of about 5 turns of warrior-scouting? Well, let's put it this way: If this map IS based on an oasis script, it's been modified beyond all recognition. Look at that map! It looks a lot more like a Highlands mapscript to me at this point - scattered peaks, thin peaks, small lakes - but if that's the case, the size of the map was probably modified arbitrarily to make it more snug than usual for one of that type. We know from tech costs that the game thinks this is a "HUGE" map, but the number of land tiles available is more consistent with a "LARGE" highlands map. Also: We still haven't done much scouting. Check back in two weeks, and I'll realize I was wrong again!

[EDIT: Annnnnnnd crosspost with Maniac.]

[EDIT2: Overall, without actually simming them, I like Maniac's original (westmost) Yellow Dot best, but it may depend on what's up north in the fog.]