Specifically because of river commerce; needs to be a different entry in the xml to get the river. Commerce. Just an implementation thing.
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Super Massive Enhanced Gameplay mod 1.0.2.1 Discussion
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Or we could just let forests next to rivers keep the river commerce even when unimproved, and we don't then need to worry about that problem CH. That's viable too.
Both make sense--though I'm not sure why you need the intermediary in the first place, rather than just making all improvements placeable on forests. (Presumably it's just a balancing tool? Couldn't that just be a build time modifier, like how improvements take longer on Tundra?)
Honestly, I think that forests would get chopped because of the need for improved tiles before most of the tile improvements become available. Especially on hills. Mines on forest hills are disgusting, only other hill improvement is the windmill which is too late. Moving them forward on techs but adding a growth period means that they are delayed but it's more controlled for balance, more levers to use to keep it functional without being broken.
Build time modifiers only take effect through workers and the numbers available, but the growth period, as explained above, means improvements can be on different techs and then there are the extra levers for balancing.
October 1st, 2016, 16:20
(This post was last modified: October 1st, 2016, 16:26 by GermanJoey.)
 (October 1st, 2016, 06:30)Krill Wrote: As for US replacement: I agree with the reasoning about Mids. You can sell me on moving unlimited free spcs of a certain type á la Caste, but I don't think you could sell me on Engineers, Spies or Priests. I don't think the specs alone are enough though? If PS is changed to +25% unit production, -100% WW, Rep stays unchanged, then I'm not 100% sure flexibility alone is enough. And Mids does make it possible that it's broken? I'm not sure this is the only option, but I do think it can work. Yeah, the unlimited Engs are the one thing that seems iffy to me. It seems acceptable and interesting if the civic comes at Nationalism but wouldn't be with the Mids, which is why I was thinking that if part of the civic required some sort of extra prerequisite just to prevent it from interacting with the Mids it would be OK. I don't see an issue with Spies (there's no missions, right?) or Priests though. Or, hell, if the extra prereq for Engineers is too fiddly, the civic could just get every spec besides Engineers and it would still be fine. I don't think Caste would be hurting too much from only 1 spec slot. Could always make it low upkeep to compensate. Or you could give it something else too? Wasn't the SMEGmod civic something like, High upkeep, +1h +1c to workshops? (October 1st, 2016, 07:11)Krill Wrote: One thing I have toyed with is making Mids not give Government civics but the Legal Civics instead (Vassalage, Bureaucracy, Nationhood, Environmentalism). The only two that would be made available much earlier are Nationhood and Environmentalism, but neither to me seems broken if available earlier. Also, I'd probably remove Stone as the production modifier if that was problematic but a better thing to do would probably be to make Mids require Masonry and Maths. But the thing is, do you care about the draft when it gets you axes, or even maces? I guess drafting maces would be pretty good if you got them at the start of the Ren era. Environmentalism... I can't ever see anyone use early over Bureau. Basically, if the Mids were like this you'd build them to get Bureau 20-30 turns early (although, how good is this really? how good is bureau when you have like a size 6 capital and no happycap?) and then maybe draft some Maces to go stomp a neighbor. It doesn't really feel like it fits... 
Well if it means you don't need Civil Service that means you can beeline knights? And drafting maces is reasonable in terms of food cost, the happy cost is the main issue there. I think what your seeing is that Mids wouldn't be as powerful, and so seems less worthwhile. I don't deny that it's weaker in that situation, but I don't think it's a useless ability given that people build Paya to not tech Theology, which costs less than Civil Service and gives no economic advantage.
(October 1st, 2016, 16:20)GermanJoey Wrote:(October 1st, 2016, 06:30)Krill Wrote: As for US replacement: I agree with the reasoning about Mids. You can sell me on moving unlimited free spcs of a certain type á la Caste, but I don't think you could sell me on Engineers, Spies or Priests. I don't think the specs alone are enough though? If PS is changed to +25% unit production, -100% WW, Rep stays unchanged, then I'm not 100% sure flexibility alone is enough. And Mids does make it possible that it's broken? I'm not sure this is the only option, but I do think it can work. I don't really want to touch tile improvement balance in this version, except for the lumber mill type stuff and possibly that US swap, which has that impact on civic balance. Don't forget Merc here is on Lib, giving 2 specs (FM is on Economics, will need one of them to reach Corporation). So Caste kinda needs to be at 2 specs. I struggle to see the point of using Caste if it only gives that 1 spec when Serfdom saves so many hammers on workers and gives hammers to windmills and watermillss, both tile improvemts I can seeing beastly if there are active on forests. Great Spies are unkillable early sentries which is reason enough to loathe them, and there's a gate on Prophets due to shrines.
I'm aiming to post a rough changelog for discussion, but before I do, I want to just go over the Caste/Serfdom/Emacipation/Universal Suffrage changes:
I think that rolling US into Emancipation is a good thing to do, with Emancipation moved to Banking that completes changes some of the options available as a players enters the Ren era. A Guilds beeline gives knights, and then one more tech opens up the options for redeveloping newly conquered lands. I think that this changes Caste from the default mid and late game civic, even if Caste is not altered. Caste is obvious choice in GA, but out of GA it really isn't. Rushbuy and US Towns are very competitive given earlier availability of gold multipliers. All said, I think that we go with this idea and then reassess the civics. Caste: I agree with nerfing the spec slots down, but nerf them down to either 2 or 3 slots for sci/merc/artists. probably 2 slots. Keeps the workshop bonus, but I think that this is weak enough, that it needs something else added to it so it competes with the behemoth of Emancipation in the late game. I'm not sure what should be added, but leaning towards a tile improvement bonus of some description, possible a mine bonus (+2 commerce?), and/or a free Eng slot in each city Serfdom is then very niche, and needs a further bonus, I'm stuck thinking that a further tile bonus makes sense here, but the remaining options are pretty meh unless +1 food to farms is overkill (it's probably broken but worth thinking about just how broken, so we can put a decent buff on Serfdom). I'm not even sure if +1 food on farms would be broken TBH, I value the new Emancipation that highly, and with boosted watermills and windmills you don't need food to support more tiles so farms aren't worth spamming and you don't get free spec slots to feed rep specs either. US being changed to give unlimited specs is OK, but I'd make it give only unlimited sci/merc/art slots, and potentially 2 priest slots and 1 eng slot. The tech that would enable it needs to be between the start of the Ren era, and Civil Service. I'd be tempted to put it at Civil Service TBH, as Bureaucracy is +35% production at Capital, FP and Versailles. Thoughts? |
