[Spoilers] Luff_Hi of Japan

[Kyan]

It doesn't have any teeth.

Yet. If nothing else, arranging for all four to feed Krill conflicting information would be very fun

[Ruff_Hi]

very interesting news ... not exactly sure why he is sharing this with me ... but there you go.

• Yaz: Hey Ruff, you around?
  
• Ruff: hi there
  
• Yaz: Willing to give me your opinion on something in PBEM2? Completely confidential though no sharing :P
  
• Ruff: sure ... np
  
• Yaz: So I've got this japanese guy on my border I think I should just kill... j/k
  
• Ruff: yeah ... do it
  
• Yaz:
  No I'm thinking of doing a galley drop on darrell
  I've got 2 axemen, 2 immortals.
  
• Ruff: he is to your west
  
• Yaz: Yeah
  
• Ruff: can I ask why?
  just because you have the units?
  
• Yaz: Western neighbour and when asking about settling rights to islands between us yesterday he sent me a SS that included his cap.
  Either he doesn't have the wheel, or he's just not hooking anything up that he improves by the looks of it.
  
• Ruff: ahh ... so opportunity knocks
  
• Yaz: Partially because I have units, partially because he's beating me in every stat except power atm and just got the great lighthouse
  and yes opportunity helps as a motivator
  
• Ruff: so ... what did you want to ask me?
  I cannot provide support ... no galleys and no actual offensive units
  
• Yaz: Yeaha nd you've not actually met him in game yet right?
  
• Ruff: true
  
• Yaz: One question is, can do both cease fire and peace treaty have the 10 turn minimum or can cease fire be cancelled early?
  
• Ruff: I thought they both have to run for 10 turns
  
• Yaz: Not 100% though?
  
• Ruff: no
  you should be able to check in game
  
• Yaz: k, I'll hunt around for the answer.
  
• Ruff: F4 .. Active
  and then hover over our deal
  are you concerned that I will turn round and attack you?
  
• Yaz: No. He's offered peace after travelling through my territory
  The 10 turn min might delay attack by 1 or 2 turns.
  
• Ruff: oh ... he declared to get thru
  
• Yaz: yeah
  
• Ruff: well ... you should be able to check in game
  
• Yaz: So if cease doesn't have it then I might re-offer cease fire instead
  
• Ruff: maybe easiest is to try and declare on him
  if it works, cancel out and reload save
  
• Yaz: Also, here's the land between us (freebie for you)
  http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2949/...ot0061.jpg
  
• Ruff: thx
  
• Yaz: That's my cap in very top right. I'm thinking the the best is to go on to other side and see of almost doing amphibous right into his cap but other option I think is land on maybe cows on other side?
  If I wanted to avoid river crossing
  
• Ruff: cows then forest hill
  
• Yaz: k. Do you think it might make sense to drop the immortals off in the top forest there for quick look at his cap. If they can do assault the hit, if not they me SE onto hill and then meet up with axemen on turn after?
  
• Ruff: that is a good option
  I wouldn't drop on the cows
  better to drop on a mine to remove hammer production
  
• Yaz: hmm true
  
• Ruff: if you are facing warriors, then -25% for river crossing isn't going to save his bacon
  
• Yaz: Guess final things to ask are do you see any sign of roads that I missed? And do you think this is a huge blunder or potentially a good opportunity?
  
• Ruff: how many cities does he have?
  
• Yaz: Not going to be too worried about his archers either since they won't have same promotions as yours.
  
• Ruff: and immortals get bonus v archer
  
• Yaz: Not sure, 2 or 3. Maybe three now
  yeah
  
• Ruff: so you can take his capital
  but then what?
  
• Yaz: Well if he doesn't have copper at all then I figure I finish him.
  
• Ruff: ok
  
• Yaz: He'd have to get a spear and an axe together to stop me.
  One or the other on it's own is still easy to pick off with my axes and immortals together
  
• Ruff: yep
  seems like a great opportunity
  
• Yaz: k I guess that's the plan. Was going to do this to your originally while we were at war :P hehe
  
• Ruff: and run into spear, axe and archer
  
• Yaz: If this one does't work out, at least it will be fun.
  
• Ruff: how many galleys do you hve
  
• Yaz: Was going to try and lure you out into middle
  None right now, 2 in 1 or 2 turns.
  
• Ruff: ok
  gtg ... see ya
  
• Yaz: cya
  Don't forget, no sharing this
  

[Ruff_Hi]

read the post #99 (4 above) first ...

here is a summary of our BBDT (Big Bad Deal Treaty) ...

first stuff is just pre-amble fluff

I - treaty is a secret
II - NAP
III & IV - land division
V - where the other end of the land division is
VI - work together
VII - tech trades are at researchers discretion
VIII - ditto resource trades
IX - sharing information is discretionary
X - except for security information
XI - end of treaty

... then read this post ...

• Darrell: Okay, so basically I'm liking it. My big problem is your NAP with Yaz and the implications on articles III and IV. Article IV basically implies you would earn your share of Yaz's land, but the reality is I will have to finish him off once I start, which basically makes the "Japanese responsibility" part of Article IV moot. Now, if you were to divert his army to the east that would certainly be doing your part, but I have doubts that Yaz will go for that.
  
• Darrell: I'm still thinking this one over...the obvious solution if you are unable to convince Yaz to join in your "adventure" is I just delay my war and focus on vertical growth for now. Maybe that is the best solution, if you can think of another let me know.
  
• Ruff: Here is where Japan can help. Yaz contacted me today to discuss his plans v America. Are you interested in knowing what they are? Have we both signed on to The Big Deal treaty?
  
• Darrell: I'm interested in knowing what they are. We have not both signed The Big Deal treaty yet.
  
• Ruff: Well, here is the rub ... Yaz asked me not to share that stuff, and without article XI, I don't think that I can.
  
• Ruff: I know I cannot actively help you v Yaz because of my NAP but I can do what I can (tech trade, resource trade, info, etc).
  
• Darrell: [SIZE="5"]okay...I'm willing to sign the big treaty with one proviso
  Blood shed by America taking cities and clearing land claimed by japan will be repaid
  I'll leave it open ended and to the japanese honor on how to best do that[/SIZE]
  
• Ruff: agreed
  
• Darrell: okay, deal signed
  
• Ruff: ditto
  
• Darrell: what's the shady persian up to?
  he's miffed at my claim to his island I guess
  
• Ruff: now for a little fun ... and so that I can say to Yaz that I didn't tell you anything ...
  can you see Yaz's power?
  
• Darrell: nope
  but I assume its pretty good
  given the war you are at
  
• Ruff: I can - will send you info
  
• Darrell: and the immortals I saw walking around
  
• Ruff: he had 1 axe and 1 immortal that I saw
  
• Darrell: Im going to sink his stuff off the coast
  
• Ruff: and he mentioned 1 axe and 1 immortal in productino
  
• Darrell: there is only one approach to me
  then I am going to f him up
  
• Ruff: the axe was sitting near my territory and has now pulled back
  so - what does that tell you?
  
• Darrell: he's got a nap with you and is exploring?
  or he's building a force to attack my warrior guarded cities
  
• Ruff: no .. his units were near Japan
  have pulled back
  
• Darrell: so he's guarding his cities or going to attack me
  I guess probably going to attack given the lack of room to expand
  
• Ruff: guarding cities with immortals and axes is boring
  
• Darrell: yeah
  okay, so shall I randomly guess etas?
  
• Ruff: so ... how will he get to you?
  
• Darrell: ETAs?
  island to the north is the only way
  off the coast of his capital
  
• Ruff: he didn't mention ETAs so I cannot help with that
  
• Darrell: does he have sailing?
  
• Ruff: yes
  
• Darrell: okay, so I need to get busy with my galleys
  
• Ruff: do you have copper?
  
• Darrell: not connected, I don't have the wheel yet
  its galleys or nothing
  
• Ruff: I saw that you don't have any roads
  
• Darrell: tGL is a big plum
  yeah
  hmm...I am going to assume 3 galleys so I need 6
  I have 1
  that's going to be painful
  
• Ruff: I saw that you don't have any roads
  
• Darrell: so I assume he knows that
  then
  
• Ruff: I saw that you don't have any roads
  
• Darrell: CanI borrow metal
  I'm dense; I assume that is where you were going
  
• Ruff: (why am I repeating that comment?)
  
• Darrell: Because you have metal you can loan me?
  
• Ruff: ok ... ask youself this ... how did I see you don't have any roads
  
• Darrell: Or because he knows I only have warriors
  oh
  Krill
  I would think it has to be krill
  
• Ruff: you didn't send me a map did you
  
• Darrell: no...I didn't send one to yaz either that I recall
  
• Ruff: oh really
  
• Darrell: err...did Yaz get my map from Krill?
  
• Ruff: wait 1
  
• Darrell: maybe I did send him something
  and didn't remember
  
• Ruff: http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2949/...ot0061.jpg
  
• Darrell: yes that is from me
  I was trying to show him where the island was
  dirty dog
  I had forgotten about that
  
• Ruff: idiot Darrell
  lol
  
• Darrell: although the reality is I will have Copper as soon as I have the wheel
  My cities are conntected by sailing, the southern city has the copper
  anyway, all that said what I need are galleys hiding out on that island
  we have a 10t peace treat since we just signed peace
  
• Ruff: well - hurry up and defog route to me and I can send you copper if you need it
  
• Darrell: That kind of gives me an ETA
  He had asked me to request peace on my turn
  
• Ruff: are you teching wheel?
  
• Darrell: No, mono
  then whell
  almost done with mono
  
• Ruff: ok ... your cities
  
• Darrell: I have 3 cities. I can get 6 galleys to that little island in 10 turns without a problem
  and sink his shite
  I need to hide tho so he doesn't see my shite
  so I need to know his staging plans
  
• Ruff: can you block ... galleys get +10% defending
  
• Darrell: I know, but tossing 3 galleys to kill 6 units is a good trade for me
  
• Ruff: how would you attack your capital if you were Yaz?
  
• Darrell: he's got many options, the fastest is from the boat tho
  just sail over and bank on my inability to make anything but warriors
  
• Ruff: that is not the fastest
  has to sail around northern tiles
  
• Darrell: well by fastest I mean it would give me the least warning
  going south means I would see him earlier
  but yeat
  he could land on the mine, move onto the forested hill (now a mine), and attack that way as well
  and technically he could stage this while waiting for the peace to end
  
• Ruff: yes - that would work for a slow 1 mover unit attack
  
• Darrell: anything else is across a river
  
• Ruff: bah!
  str 4 v 2 across river ... who cares
  
• Darrell: he could boat to the SE of the rice, land and DoW, then attack across the river
  and if he stages while the cooldown is in effect then I cna't do much about it
  in fact, I might already be in trouble
  since I can't block him
  I believe galleys can share tiles while at peace
  
• Ruff: true
  
• Darrell: I could settle a city however
  
• Ruff: oh very nice
  
• Darrell: I wonder how many turns to my third border pop now that I have tGL
  
• Ruff: and use that to block his approach
  
• Darrell: yeah
  
• Ruff: settle it on the 3 tile island and he cannot get past
  
• Darrell: question is do I found the rice site or the aggressive I am going to attakc you site
  yeah
  that's what I could do
  do you have any idea how many turns I have?
  
• Ruff: bank on your current peace deal
  
• Darrell: okay
  I've got some thinking to do
  sneaky little guy getting me to ask for peace
  I wish I had forgotten
  
• Ruff: so ... worth the price of admission?
  
• Darrell: yup
  I wonder...do you know if the peace treaty ends for both players on the same turn?
  
• Ruff: I am going to send you updated treaty and post it tonight too
  I do not know - I would assume so
  
• Darrell: will it expire first for me then?
  
• Ruff: is it a peace deal or cease fire?
  
• Darrell: peace
  so that's 10 turns
  
• Ruff: yeah
  
• Darrell: I offered, he presumably accepted
  I play first, so in theory I could DoW if it ends for us on the same turn
  But if his counter starts first, I'm screwed
  
• Ruff: I would expect it to end during the end of round processing
  
• Darrell: okay
  I cna do a pbem game and playtest I guess
  
• Ruff: yep
  I like the idea of throwing down a city on that 3 tile island and using that to block his way ... very sneaky
  
• Darrell: yes
  but it exposes my hand
  I could blockade his capital tho
  
• Ruff: you also have to write that city off
  
• Darrell: yeah
  better is to catch him unaware
  
• Ruff: yep
  
• Darrell: he thinks I don't know whats coming, I hit him where it hurts
  
• Ruff: anyway ... have fun planning that one
  
• Darrell: It wuld be really useful to me if you could get more info out of him
  
• Ruff: remember ... I didnt' tell you anything
  you guessed it all
  
• Darrell: hell, tell him anytyhing you want about me, act like you are playing his side
  draw him into your confidence and feed me intel
  once I know his plan, I can take him out no problem
  
• Ruff: that is the whole point of BBDT (big bad deal treaty)
  
• Darrell: yeah
  I likey
  
• Ruff: <evil grin>
  and it fits very nicely with Japan too
  
• Darrell: Yes it does
  Thanksfully I'll never have to type the words Pearl Harbor in my forum
  I think I'll take an early lunch, lots of testing and planning to do.
  Let me know if you find anything out.
  
• Ruff: ditto Hiroshima
  
• Darrell: yup, ditto hiroshima
  man yaz still has the save
  but I can open my old one right?
  
• Ruff: totally
  
• Darrell: okay cool
  
• Ruff: you can go back any number fo turns
  
• Ruff: just sending you a clean copy of the treaty ... I moved the 'end of treaty' article to the bottom
  
• Darrell: hey
  one last question
  was that thing I guessed about him two moving across a river a guess?
  
• Ruff: not sure what you are saying
  are you asking me if I told you about that
  
• Darrell: is it verified he is taking the southern route and attacking the way I "guessed"
  
• Ruff: I thought we were just discussing a hypothetical attack on your capital
  
• Darrell: yes, of course
  hypothetically, have you discussed the exact same scneario with another party
  exact same
  
• Ruff: well - that is certaintly the way I would do it
  said hypothetical 3rd party was unsure about their best option
  
• Darrell: okay...just want to make sure if I put all me eggs in one basket it is the right basket
  feel free to encourage
  
• Ruff: if it was me, I would offload 2 movers on forest 2NE of your capital and 1movers on your coastal mine
  
• Darrell: right
  
• Ruff: with the aim of killing your capital with 2movers if possible
  or moving stack together on mine next to city
  

[Ruff_Hi]

well - that takes care of any security threats to my west ... nap with Yaz, game long alliance with Darrell and Krill is just too far away.

What about my east ... I cannot dial either of them up (my diplo rule ruining the day again) so I will have to see what I can do about securing my eastern border. Darrell's comments have me thinking

[Ruff_Hi]

What about my east ...

hey, this game loves me ... here I was starting to put together a navel defense force and SL dials me up ...

• SquareLeg: Hey Ruff, I was wondering if you had a min?
  
• Ruff: sure
  let me know if you want help getting the aussie test match locations in the right order
  
• SquareLeg: Ha ha - just watching ross taylor clip you around the park...
  don't think it will last long in honesty!
  I am aware we don't have any agreements in place and was wondering if you wnated to go someway to securing your eastern border?
  
• Ruff: sure - what are you thinking?
  NAP?
  
• SquareLeg: NAP would be a good start but perhaps progress that to open borders once you have defogged a way to me?
  
• Ruff: I have a boat heading your way
  
• SquareLeg: What sort of length were you thinking?
  
• Ruff: oh - what about tech trades too?
  what turn is it now?
  
• SquareLeg: I forget... almost 50
  
• Ruff: thru to 80 iwth 20 cool down?
  
• SquareLeg: I don't see why not.
  I have been having some trouble matching you on eps lately. shall we agree to leave it a demogs?
  
• Ruff: ok ... will send you email to confirm ... NAP also means no giftin gyour units to someone else to attack me
  
• SquareLeg: ok - that seems fair. Ditto obviously
  
• Ruff: yep
  just met Darrell so can swap EPs to him
  tech?
  
• SquareLeg: Where is your scout currently?
  Well - I'm sure you have heard that I am teching Alphabet
  
• Ruff: I am on Aeth due in 9ish
  alphabet is nice ... have you set up trades for it?
  
• SquareLeg: Yes - Unfortunately I didn't get anything set up with you in the first place.
  
• Ruff: yeah ... why is that?
  
• SquareLeg: I don't currently have Aeth lined up though
  Not sure really - Darrell and Krill seemed to be sorting trades out on turn zero-1!! Darrell let it slip to yaz in a chat we were having that meant I couldn't really not involve him... Both you and Dreylin got a little left out because of that.
  
• Ruff: ok, let me send you the formal nap treaty ... and I'll look at the tech situation ... do I have your email address?
  
• SquareLeg: Should do - <snip>
  

Native America,

Japan is pleased to present a Non Aggression Pact for your consideration. The terms of the part are:

Minimum Term: T80
Minimum Cancellation Period: 20 turns
Gifting of military troops to other Civilizations for use against other Party not allowed.

Regards,

Luff_Hi of Japan

Perfect timing for me as I just triple whipped a settler and I was going to build 2 galleys back to back. Now I can run those 44 hammers into a library. Turn tech down to 0% as that library will finish in 2 turns and there isn't a rush on Aesths.

If SL trades alphabet to all of the others, do I really need it? Apart from being able to build tech and spies, what does alphabet get me? Opens up currency (as does Maths) and I need it for Printing Press (which is miles away). I'll wait and see what else SL has on offer.

[Ruff_Hi]

I guess that SL hasn't worked out my diplo style yet.

Luff_Hi of Japan,

Sitting Bull gladly accepts the terms of this NAP. We hope that our nations can work together in the future and await your response regarding potential tech trades.

Cheers,
Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

[Whosit]

I guess that SL hasn't worked out my diplo style yet.

Poor guy. Poor you? I guess if you look at it a certain way, he's technically asking you to respond to a request of his . . . .

Also, I like your double-edged diplomacy re: Yaz. But do you really think Darrell is going to get it together in time? Even after you made it clear that his roadlessness was evident for all to see, it didn't sound like he was going to prioritize the Wheel.

[Ruff_Hi]

Poor guy. Poor you? I guess if you look at it a certain way, he's technically asking you to respond to a request of his . . . .

Well, I guess I could but that is stretching it a little. I've decided that I have an open invitation to talk to Darrell due to our treaty. Everyone else has to actually reach out to me.

Also, I like your double-edged diplomacy re: Yaz. But do you really think Darrell is going to get it together in time? Even after you made it clear that his roadlessness was evident for all to see, it didn't sound like he was going to prioritize the Wheel.

um ... cannot you check D's thread for that info? I know I can't. From the info I am getting, he seems to be getting pretty ready.

[Ruff_Hi]

If you remember, dear reader, Yaz contacted me just as I was discussing a super secret game long treaty with Darrell about him attacking Darrell. Well, I sort of leveraged that information into getting Darrell to sign said treaty quickly. Since then, he has spawned galleys and units like crazy (I am glad he is on my side). Anyway, 3 days ago, Yaz and I chatted ...

• Yaz: Hey Ruff
  Don't happen to have any need of a couple axemen and galley do you?
  
• Ruff: um ... why?
  I thought you were going to use them against Darrell
  
• Yaz: I think I've reconsidered (aka chickened out). Don't have enough cities or production to pump out units for another war so decided it was better to explore and expand
  
• Ruff: oh
  well - what is the offer?
  I'm looking to expand and I don't want to present a soft target to SL
  
• Yaz: Well not sure, do you have any need for them? I'd certainly be interested in workers
  
• Ruff: ah - only have 2 of those guys
  let me see if I can build some more and then make a pitch
  
• Yaz: ok
  We should also look into workers for settler deals
  
• Ruff: what about 2 workers for 1 axe, galley and immortal?
  
• Yaz: Was thinking of that at same time since i can build cheap settlers
  
• Ruff: yeah - love your cheap settlers
  
• Yaz: So do I
  That sounds like it might be decent deal, I'll have to look at how things are with that though since I have immortals on one galley checking out island to my north.
  
• Ruff: north east or north west?
  
• Yaz: north east. Not there yet but you saw the island with fish on it's coast in my ss I sent you?
  Figured I'd like to see it.
  And since I don't have scouts... (how'd that happen
  I decided immortals are good substitue
  
• Ruff: sure - there is another island further east of that that I am heading to next turn
  
• Yaz: k I'll get back to you later on what time frames look like for that then. Don't think Iwant to gift immortal in your territory just because of it's experience
  
• Ruff: wait - where did it get that experience - lol
  but ok
  
• Yaz:
  
• Ruff: think about it - buiding workers now so would be interested in galley / axe / immortal for 2 worker swap
  
• Yaz: Yup will let you know soon. I need to step out to lunch. Silly me didn't buy groceries yesterday and stores closed on sunday bleh
  
• Ruff: ha - I am off to the movies ... hot tub time machine - looks totally stupid
  
• Yaz: I think that's it's goal :P Enjoy
  

and then earlier this morning ...

• Yaz: Hey Ruff
  
• Ruff: hi ther
  
• Yaz: When do you think you'd want to do that unit trade? I know you said you only have two workers now so guessing you'd need to build them?
  
• Ruff: have 1 finishing next turn
  what was the trade again?
  
• Yaz: 1 immortal, 1 axeman, 1 galley for two workers
  
• Ruff: ok ... when do you want to trade?
  
• Yaz: Well I could trade axeman in a few turns (getting a deal there as he just hit level 2 :P)
  My immortal on my galley up north would take a bit to get back though. I could build immortal in probably 6-7 turns, galley would take longer obviously.
  
• Ruff: 1 sec
  phone
  
• Yaz: k
  
• Ruff: well - I can use the workers prior to goft
  gift
  
• Yaz: true
  I can let you know a few turns ahead of having the axe + immortal ready to trade on your border if you'd like and we can do those 2 for 1 worker and later the galley for the other.
  
• Ruff: ok - sounds fine
  got a rough timetable so I have to worker over in the right place?
  
• Yaz: Lets say 7T? If it looks like that's wrong I'll let you know.
  
• Ruff: its T53 now?
  so around T60?
  
• Yaz: yeah
  Unless you want axe earlier and willing to give me worker ealier for just it
  Noticed your one city is missing a guard
  
• Ruff: T60 is fine
  
• Yaz: k
  
• Ruff: thx - pleasure doing business with you
  
• Yaz: u2
  

So, it looks like Yaz is selling me some of his offensive units (soon to be defensive units) for a couple of workers.

Darrell's take on this when I told him ...

• Ruff: and did you see my comment re Yaz units?
  
• Darrell: what about yaz's units?
  
• Ruff: I dropped you a line yesterday re a chat I had with Yaz
  
• Darrell: oh, about some units on t60
  I call BS, I'm sure now he is attacking
  
• Darrell: my guess is his navy spotted mine this last turn, because his thread sure has been activ e
  

[Ruff_Hi]

Darrell and I also chatted about how tech trades (he is ok with a no build on TGLib as long as he gets a 3 turn head start on Music) and then ...

• Ruff: oh ... you will like this ... I have elephants in my 3rd city
  
• Darrell: I LOVE that
  Krill was worried about elephants being on the map