RB PBEM 2 - de Krill of Fronce

[pocketbeetle]

Shame on you Krill for trying to make Dreylin cry!

[Krill]

Trying? Only way you could describe my builds as trying to make him cry was if he just built Oracle...otherwise I think I might have succeeded

I'm following along, so bring on the overview. This game is much easier to keep track of as a lurker than Pitboss 3.

Cool, nice to see people are reading this thread. I'm still reconsidering my builds after next turn: I'm wondering about leaving Vp at size 5, working 3 food and 2 hills for 4 turn settlers and 2 workers every 5 turns...that way I don't even need to slave out a granary other option is the simple slave granary, slave forge, slave everything...which might be more efficient, but gets up new cities later on.

Also, my capital is possibly the most sucky city I'm going to have, so that is almost certainly going to be the NE city...I think it is worse to leave my capital at one size churning out settlers then Vp, so better to slave LS than Vp. But perhaps slaving Vp is better long term...

Hmmm. need to think about when Darrell will be settling that border city...and about when I am going to build the Collosus.

[Krill]

So, Got Oracle, and can pick MC next turn. Vp grows to size 3, LS gets slaved to size 3, and best of all, my warrior lives :D at 1.6 health, and at 2XP. I moved him to the forest, but it looks like the peninsula ends right up there...not that I'm complainng, that is one more city that I thought I had, maybe 2 if there is seafood up there.

Lands Start

So, my shitty capital...well, actually it is good, great even for what I want it to be, but shitty for the late game. Plan is to probably whip a granary at size 4, overflow to a work boat or 2 warriors, grow and slave some more. With that granary I should easily be able to abuse and whip every 6 turns, maybe quicker. Plan on getting NE in there (and maybe the GL?) and just try to abuse it as a wondercity when appropriate and the rest of the time work great people (then add them to the OU city somewhere).

Short term, the city isn't really capable of producing any hammers until I can get those hills mined over the other side of the bay, especially considering the pig and hill are going to Vp. Unless I slave it into the ground...thank god for CHM, Henge, religion and gems :D




Viewpoint

My Holy city. I don't know why, but I have gotten Hinduism in the last two games in here after being a vocal opponent of early religion. Oh wait, I actually had some decent food for once, and everyone else ignored Hinduism (plus Darrell managed to stage a few deals where he went for Monothem is, which appears to have stopped anyone teching Poly...) I really like Vp. Great city, once Moia is in there, possible the best city on hte map. I think I'm just going to leave it at size 5, then let it slave overflow into Moia once I get Sailing, which is in quite a few turns time...long enough to get it to size 5, and shove out those Settlers/workers...and get the warriors on the way up.

Short term, it is capable of making 31 hammers until it reaches size 5 (in 6 turns), excluding those needed to finish the current warrior, so I could build 3 warriors, or a warrior and a work boat. I think I need to get another warrior, I need MP for both cities, the warrior to the NE to barb bust, and a further warrior to guard the gems city. I could also do with the WB to hook those fish for gems, and if I got it early enough, it might be able to make it to uncover a trade route to America, and then get back for when the borders pop. Decisions decisions. But hey, it's why we play the game, right?



Overview shots. I really like my land. I figure I have 1 great production city in Vp, a solid NE city in LS, City 4 is a great border/hybrid city, probably going to workshop that city up to the eyeballs once Guilds is in (and beforehand? Considering Caste tbh...if I found stone, that could give me a very strong hand, possible make me the dogpile victim of chice if I'm not already). Actually, something to consider, with 1 workshop and a forge, I can get 21 hpt at size 6...which is about 15 turns to build. Hmm.

Cities to the NW, well, I got minimum of 2 flood plains, so settle on the desert hills, and get a cool +6 fpt, and can also irrigate/workshop the plains, so that is another late game hammer city (yeah, noticed anything about my economy of choice yet?)

Aim of game by t50 is to have gems city settled, 2 workers down there, and one worker roading to a new city to the NW. The combination of Vp and LS should be enough for me to fill my land pretty fast, and keep it fully improved ie get the workboats out and slave what I need :D

[Krill]

To Dreylin. Trying to get him to do something other than put me off. Also talked with Squareleg about some possible Anti Byz working together later on to deal with cataphracts.

Dreylin,

I am sending this email, hoping to open some real negoitiations with you regarding technology. I am heading towards HBR, IW, and I have MC (or will discover MC once I get the turn). I am willing to trade you all of these techs, at beaker discounts if you feel that is appropriate or for other concessions of your choosing, considering your position with regards to tech trading.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but I am your eastern neighbour, and will have workboats out to meet you asap. We are much more likely to to have contact ourselves before Alphabet is researched (I Know who is researching it, but I don't know what that player would think if I were to reveal his identity if he has not already), so I don't see any reason why we can't come to some agreement that we find mutually beneficial, and helps you keep up in the tech race instead of having to worry about the military techs.

Thanks in advance,

Krill

[Krill]

Hmm. I might have to get Sailing sooner than I expect...settling that desert island for that fish could be critical for trade routes. But 3 turns and I can Vp onto a settler...still wondering where he is going And still wondering what I slave out of LS at size 4.

LS gets slaved in 4 and 8 turns, if I decide to go for workers, 6 and 12 if I were to go for settlers. Vp finishes the settler in 7, or workers in 6 and 8 turns respectively...all of that including growth. Mainly going to be overflowing warriors...I supose a lot depends on if I need to hook up horses?

Picture from America:



Picture of my west:

[Krill]

Some emails with Dreylin about tech trading...

I basically offered him CoL for IW and HBR, or for MC, and I'd give him a 100 beaker discount. I could have asked for Meditation, but I'm goingto see if he offers that later on (I'm not building missionaries just yet), and I'm considering what I would have to do to grab the GL and Pyramids on top of the expansion phase...main defence will be trirememes.

Hey Krill,

Sorry it's taken me a while to knock you out a reply, but as I said in chat I didn't really feel overly capable of rational thought earlier today!

I have heard the view of the world that puts you as my Eastern neighbour - which of course filled me with horror. 9-)

Right now I'm actually trying to work out what to research as my first "trade" tech; I had been hoping to have MC to offer myself, and now it seems that most of the natural first-level techs have been earmarked by various players ... and some even seem to have claimed more than one! Do you have trades already lined up with the others, or are there particular techs that might be more interesting to you?

I'll should let you know that I'm kind-of in two minds about whether to trade with you at all. If you're not already the front-runner in this game, I'm sure that will be clearly the case once you finish the Colossus, and then is it really in my interest to help you further? On the other hand, due to all that stupid pre-contact diplo I've been somewhat sidelined in the initial tech exchange, and might not have a wide array of options for trading partners....

Let me know what you think,

Dreylinian I.

Dreylinian I,

No problem on the time taken for the reply, I understand other people do have lives even if the occasional pokes suggest otherwise

I have trades lined up with everyone in game, except you. I figure the easiest way for you to break into the trades would be either via CoL, or some upfront tech gifted to you in exchange for a larger tech later, ie Currency, both of which are important (although I personally would prefer to trade with you for Currency, I am not the player you would need the tech from to research said tech, so perhaps CoL is an easier target to attain).

And on the two minds point...remember that I have IW, HBR and MC, 3 techs that you need to field your UU. As I have no trade clauses to all of the techs that I am trading away, you would have to either duplicate all of my research, or persuade someone to break their agreement with me to gift them to you, or trade with me. You should also reconsider who the run away civ is; I may look to be powerful, but Darrell just completed the GLH, has about 6 times my MFG (ok, that might improve in the short term to about half, but those have been the figures for the last few turns) and 50% higher crop yield than myself. I don't even have Sailing, and still teching AH. Am I a threat? I'd be lying if I said no, but would you also like Darrell to easily run over all of our island, with it so easy to settle off shore islands for the 2 commerce trade routes? And would you cutting off any tech trades hurt me more than it hurt you, considering that I will most likely have the Collosus?

As it is, I feel that there is much scope for mutual gain by trade between our two nations, and that antagonism is not in either of our interests. Don't forget that you also have one of the most powerful UU in the game, that other players will fear.

Krill

Hey Krill,

Yep, all those things have gone through my mind recently ... well apart from the demographics info, which of course I can't get since I haven't met you guys yet. 8-)

I've actually been chatting to a couple of the other guys recently and have committed to researching Code of Laws - as you say, it's the only remaining available tech that won't require one of the others as pre-req. Not too sure of the timing yet though as I still have to pick up Writing first, but I'll let you know as soon as I have a decent approximation.

You do seem to have built up a good military tech monopoly there, so you're right that at this stage I probably have little choice but to trade with you. So what sort of deals do you have in mind?

Dreylinian I.

[Krill]

Chat with Darrell. Seem to be getting closer and closer to some sort of bilateral alliance, but I think it is probably in both of our interests: he needs someone to give him trade routes, and we both are starting to get into hte lead...I know if me and Darrell are close, then I can pressure Dreylin into not being stupid and being my sole enemy. he's already done that once, and he didn;t come out in a good position.

And fwiw, I don;t like the GLH because it is reliant on other players giving you OB, and it is just too easy for teams to refuse. That means you are stuck with continential trade routes, so +2, for an easy +4 commerce per turn per city, but it isn't game breaking. Collosus can easily make that, but later, but also cheaper. Plus I got henge and ORacle into the deal for hte Prophet, less hammers on monuments, and cheap early forges if I want. I got much greater flexibility out of the deal IMO...

(3/23/2010 1:32:45 PM) Darrell: yo
(3/23/2010 1:33:11 PM) Darrell: I wanted to clarify the deals we had in place...its been so long and some other people have "forgotten" what we had agreed to.
(3/23/2010 1:34:00 PM) Darrell: I get: Iron Working + HBR + Priesthood + Metal Casting
He gets: Polytheism + Masonry + Monotheism + Mathematics
I avoid Stonehenge, The Oracle, and The Colossus
He avoids: The Great Lighthouse
We agree to sign open borders
(3/23/2010 1:34:03 PM) Darrell: This is what I had
(3/23/2010 1:34:27 PM) Darrell: Then also we have some kind of pseduo NAP/cooperation thing, which isn't very well defined.
(9:05:53 PM) de krill of Fronce: Hi mate
(9:06:04 PM) de krill of Fronce: only just got back from work
(9:06:09 PM) de krill of Fronce: sending off diplomacy
(9:06:15 PM) de krill of Fronce: and just read what you sent me
(9:06:57 PM) de krill of Fronce: My understanding of the technology deal was Mc, IW, HBr for poly, mono, masonry and Maths
(9:08:20 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'm happy to trade you priest hood for Sailing on top of that
(9:28:43 PM) Darrell: okay
(9:29:36 PM) Darrell: just checked again pretty sure priesthood was included
(9:29:43 PM) Darrell: but I dont mind adding sailing and poly
(9:29:50 PM) Darrell: might need to get a beaker credit too :P
(9:44:48 PM) de krill of Fronce: hmmm
(9:44:58 PM) de krill of Fronce: looks like my oringial post is outdated
(9:45:08 PM) Darrell: okay
(9:45:11 PM) de krill of Fronce: oringial?
(9:45:14 PM) de krill of Fronce: original
(9:45:32 PM) de krill of Fronce: so yeah, I'll send you them over once you or I get Alphabet
(9:45:32 PM) Darrell: hey if I take over pbem1 for some dude that's leaving am I wasting my time?
(9:45:43 PM) de krill of Fronce: hmm?
(9:45:45 PM) de krill of Fronce: What game?
(9:45:50 PM) Darrell: I have no idea what kind of position the
(9:45:50 PM) Darrell: err
(9:45:52 PM) Darrell: oops
(9:45:54 PM) Darrell: pb1
(9:46:01 PM) de krill of Fronce: Which civ?
(9:46:01 PM) Darrell: some dude is leaving and no one seemed interested
(9:46:04 PM) Darrell: is he dead
(9:46:06 PM) Darrell: let me check
(9:46:11 PM) de krill of Fronce: Persia? Shadyforce?
(9:46:17 PM) Darrell: yeah
(9:46:23 PM) de krill of Fronce: take it
(9:46:24 PM) Darrell: do I have anything at all to work with?
(9:46:26 PM) Darrell: ok
(9:46:32 PM) de krill of Fronce: That civ is about to have a great time in the game
(9:46:48 PM) Darrell: I was worried it was an exploit moment
(9:46:53 PM) de krill of Fronce: nah
(9:46:58 PM) Darrell: ah nuts, Im dead, screw this let someone else play it out type thing
(9:47:01 PM) de krill of Fronce: the guy started a masters after a few years working
(9:47:06 PM) Darrell: Am I allied with anyone?
(9:47:09 PM) de krill of Fronce: yeah
(9:47:13 PM) de krill of Fronce: Twinkletoes
(9:47:15 PM) Darrell: let me guess...no trego and sunrise
(9:47:16 PM) Darrell: okay
(9:47:21 PM) Darrell: that should make our pb3 forum more interesting
(9:47:25 PM) de krill of Fronce:
(9:47:55 PM) de krill of Fronce: FWIW
(9:48:02 PM) Darrell: wish ruff would hurry up and play the stupid save
(9:48:09 PM) de krill of Fronce: Persia is in about the most fun position onth map
(9:48:11 PM) Darrell: shoot
(9:48:12 PM) de krill of Fronce: yup
(9:48:13 PM) Darrell: he played it
(9:48:19 PM) de krill of Fronce: you ask him to play it please
(9:48:30 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'm pretty sure I'm making him grow stomach ulcers
(9:48:33 PM) Darrell: every time I ask him he says no
(9:48:39 PM) Darrell: I need to learn the zen of poking
(9:48:52 PM) de krill of Fronce: persistance
(9:49:06 PM) de krill of Fronce: and the knowledge that you could make the game hell for them if you wanted to
(9:50:02 PM) de krill of Fronce: btw
(9:50:20 PM) de krill of Fronce: I think the NAp thingy that we seem to have going is just a mutual understanding that we don;t want to turn into Ruff or Yaz
(9:50:28 PM) de krill of Fronce: which is a pretty good thing
(9:50:39 PM) de krill of Fronce: we could probably lock up every single wonder in the entire game if we wanted to
(9:50:54 PM) Darrell: yeah
(9:50:57 PM) Darrell: that works for me
(9:51:02 PM) Darrell: let's make an official cooldown nap
(9:51:09 PM) Darrell: open ended, 10 turn warnning or something?
(9:51:34 PM) de krill of Fronce: Sure, let's make it 13 turns
(9:51:38 PM) de krill of Fronce: seems weird
(9:51:39 PM) Darrell: ok
(9:51:41 PM) Darrell: odd number
(9:51:45 PM) Darrell: you preobably have grand plan
(9:51:51 PM) Darrell:
(9:51:51 PM) de krill of Fronce: but it is equivalent to 20 on normal speed :D
(9:51:56 PM) Darrell: ah
(9:52:31 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'm still waiting for some uber anti Krill alliance to form (again)
(9:52:56 PM) de krill of Fronce: only real problem is that you'd get all of the land, or you;d have to put up with someone else on the island
(9:52:59 PM) Darrell: I will promise not to join an uber anit krill alliance if you promise not to join an anit me alliance
(9:53:05 PM) Darrell: great deal for you, odds are in your favor
(9:53:06 PM) de krill of Fronce: That also works for me
(9:53:11 PM) de krill of Fronce:
(9:53:35 PM) de krill of Fronce: Call it the BA, Blue alliance
(9:53:40 PM) de krill of Fronce: or something like that
(9:54:35 PM) Darrell: yeah
(9:54:38 PM) Darrell: that would include krill
(9:54:41 PM) Darrell: yaz I mean
(9:54:49 PM) Darrell: ruff was asking if I was "good" blue or bad blue
(9:54:51 PM) Darrell: too bad they made peace
(9:54:57 PM) de krill of Fronce: save is with you
(9:55:10 PM) de krill of Fronce: what, really?
(9:55:14 PM) de krill of Fronce: I didn;t know that
(9:55:18 PM) Darrell: wow
(9:55:24 PM) Darrell: that would make this the fastest turn ever :P
(9:55:25 PM) Darrell: yeah, they did
(9:55:52 PM) Darrell: okay man, talk to you later
(9:55:57 PM) Darrell: last eta I heard for alpha was 13 turns
(9:56:21 PM) de krill of Fronce: heh, I only just got hte email
(9:57:18 PM) de krill of Fronce: jesus, is that the fifth settler?
(9:57:23 PM) Darrell: err...maybe
(9:57:38 PM) Darrell: I need to put two settlers on that little continent to my southwest
(9:57:38 PM) de krill of Fronce: I know you jsut triple slaved your cap
(9:57:50 PM) Darrell: the intercont bonus will make them pay for themselves
(9:58:03 PM) Darrell: me no likely people...
(9:58:10 PM) Darrell: likely = likey
(9:58:59 PM) Darrell: I need monarchy
(9:59:05 PM) Darrell: do you plan on teching monarchy anytime soon?
(9:59:37 PM) de krill of Fronce: and onwards...
(9:59:42 PM) de krill of Fronce: Yaz is teching Monarchy
(10:00:03 PM) Darrell: really
(10:00:04 PM) Darrell: interesting
(10:00:08 PM) de krill of Fronce: yeah
(10:00:08 PM) Darrell: need to talk to him about that
(10:00:12 PM) de krill of Fronce: Dreylin - CoL
(10:00:17 PM) de krill of Fronce: SL - Alphabet
(10:00:23 PM) de krill of Fronce: you - maths/mono
(10:00:26 PM) Darrell: that will be useful as ORG and city munching
(10:00:31 PM) de krill of Fronce: Krill - HBR/Iw (+ MC)
(10:00:45 PM) de krill of Fronce: Ruff - No idea
(10:01:09 PM) Darrell: HBR?
(10:01:13 PM) Darrell: erg
(10:01:21 PM) Darrell: I hope you don't plan on sending those meanies my way
(10:01:35 PM) de krill of Fronce: nah, I'm kinda like you - I want those cities down and pronto
(10:01:42 PM) de krill of Fronce: unlike you I have to grow them to make them useful
(10:01:47 PM) de krill of Fronce: Also, really need Currency
(10:01:56 PM) de krill of Fronce: I know SL wants to tech that
(10:03:05 PM) Darrell: I will talk to him
(10:03:14 PM) Darrell: so why HBR? it doesnt boost economy really
(10:03:21 PM) Darrell: good for trade value on most maps but a water map?
(10:03:34 PM) de krill of Fronce: It was the oly "cheap" tech that I could add on to IW to make up the beaker shortfall
(10:04:24 PM) Darrell: gotcha
(10:04:40 PM) Darrell: Well I'll trade you for it, need to plan my tech path out a bit further I guess
(10:04:41 PM) de krill of Fronce: Also, Krill with 2 military techs is to be feared...but Krill with no econnomic techs can't expand his empire for ever...
(10:04:42 PM) Darrell: good intel
(10:04:59 PM) de krill of Fronce: uh, our original trade had me sending you HBR anyway
(10:06:06 PM) Darrell: hbr = horseback riding?
(10:06:18 PM) de krill of Fronce: yes
(10:06:31 PM) Darrell: well aren't I sheepish :S
(10:06:44 PM) de krill of Fronce: haha
(10:06:46 PM) Darrell: I knew that all along, I was just, uh, testing your, umm, you know...uh...memory! yeah, that's the ticket
(10:09:59 PM) de krill of Fronce: how the hell did you get a monument in Boston so fast?
(10:11:34 PM) Darrell: lucky?
(10:11:38 PM) Darrell: the whip
(10:11:56 PM) de krill of Fronce: wow, Boston really bee naround 8 turns?
(10:12:06 PM) de krill of Fronce: didn;t think it had been that long
(10:12:12 PM) de krill of Fronce: we must really be shifting those turns
(10:13:40 PM) Darrell: yeah
(10:13:47 PM) Darrell: we've done well latey
(10:13:50 PM) Darrell: quick speed is fun
(10:17:30 PM) Darrell: the advantage of slinging MC of course is that you dont have to do anything BUT pay for them
(10:17:38 PM) Darrell: your techs will come via trade in the near term
(10:17:56 PM) Darrell: its an interesting thing, does oracle/henge/colossus beat tGL in terms of strategy
(10:18:03 PM) Darrell: so many different sides to the puzzle
(10:18:14 PM) Darrell: you paid more hammers, benefits come later, have longer impact and greater boost
(10:18:24 PM) Darrell: I'm really quite fascinated by the situation
(10:20:45 PM) de krill of Fronce: well, that could be it
(10:23:09 PM) de krill of Fronce: ah, on the PBEm...
(10:23:15 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'm not sure
(10:23:35 PM) de krill of Fronce: I think the main point is how good are the coastal cities you are planting
(10:24:24 PM) de krill of Fronce: and how many hammers I need to spend to keep up in growth
(10:24:29 PM) de krill of Fronce: for instance, I only have 1 worker...
(10:24:42 PM) de krill of Fronce: but I have never been working unimproved tiles
(10:24:54 PM) de krill of Fronce: and still got some chops in
(10:26:43 PM) Darrell: yeah, kits going to be a really intersting game

[Krill]

I've been looking how to dot map the 15 tiles to my NW (now lovingly named Colorado), and I've come up with 4 different ways to settle the land.

1. Green is an attempt at an uber city. 15 base hpt, 8 coastal tiles. Max 4 workshops (excluding flood plains). Also good place to make a cottage academy city, except gems is probably better.
   
   
2. Blue is a slightly weaker uber city plus a western coastal commerce city (with small production or 2 specialists). 12/8 base easily, slightly more once workshops start improving, all but 3 coastal tiles. Max 4 workshops
   
   
3. Red is stealing the clams from Vp (it has pigs and Fish, not like it needs clams all of the time), and has 2 relatively balanced cities. Less commerce than blue, and less production in 1 city, but that is the price of the flexibility. Assuming clams (which is fair IMO, that is how I'd play it) it makes a little more than 20 hpt total (MM allows it to be split), and all but 7 coastal tiles. Max 3 workshops
   
   
4. Black. 3 commerce cities, production really split (but plains hill can reach 12 base with engineer, which is as good as blue), 12/6/6 base hpt at breakeven (or 8/8/8, provided the eastern 2 cities have forges). All coastal tiles available, max 5 workshops.

Also, want to remember that later game is rules by Mining Inc, and drafting, not single city production, so if I can afford the multiple cities (and the extra improvements so required) monetarily, then Black is the best choice as it is always hte highest hammer producer.

Yes, this post was used to explain the situation to myself as much as to the lurkers. This morning I wanted to go with green, then I saw blue and thought it looked pretty, now I think Black is a great compromise as I can make the two western cities hammer cities after I slave out everything I need, and commerce cities before that. Tomorrow I'll probably go back in favour of red.

Really, it's amazing the fun you can have figuring out how to settle 15 tiles worth of land when there is food available.



Also, map of the rest of my land: that was much more straight forward...but add 1 to all of the cities numbers, as I settle gems city after I settle the NW city. Also, pig gets hooked next turn, so the unhealthiness goes. Then road to the NW...while building settler3 in Vp, finish in 4 turns. LS works a grassland to make 19 hammers next turn, then double slave worker2, overflow to a settler4 at size 2, regrow to size 4, slave and overflow 8 hammers to finish the WB, regrow to size 4, 19 hammers into a worker3 again, double slave, overflow into worker at size 2, finish worker4. Total, 14 turns.

Damnit, now I need to think of city names.

[Krill]

Hey guys, my conscience (& Rowain) think I should make sure you all know about one of the effects of the mod that we may have missed during the game setup (I checked the thread and couldn't find a mention of it).

We took the NoScoreV2 we're using from this thread at CFC, but the key information is actually in this post on page 2 of the thread:

Max research boost for 'known civs with tech' is increased from 30% to 100%.

I was involved with the start-up of the CFC game, so was aware of this information (at least somewhere in my head) when our game was setup, but I don't think it was mentioned here.

Uh, that is a very useful side effect to note - it will help stop teams from falling behind even if a large alliance is put together that embargoes one particular civ. That means that I'm pretty sure that me and Darrell could survive a 4v2 without too much trouble, provided we teched smart.

[novice]

Is that flood plains 1W of green since you didn't put a blue city there to get the fish?