Politics Discussion Thread (Heated Arguing Warning)

[greenline]

The majority of Hungarians agree with this. Orban's main opposition is the far right parties that don't even pretend that they're respectable

Edit : yes the left managed to get more votes than Jobbik in 2014 by uniting behind a single list, but they're barely relevant anyway. 2/3 of Hungarians wanted Orban or Jobbik last time

Not my point. I haven't found any sources saying Hungary's immigration policy is equivalent to 'no brown people but christians'

I did once see a quote from a Slovakian government member to that effect but they have not implemented such a policy either

[Bacchus]

The most developed countries on the planet have both high density areas and diversity in its population. Refugees bring both.

This is so hilariously backwards in terms of density (development generates density, not the other way around) and wrong in terms of diversity (the leader in diversity by far is Africa, another top example are the Balkans) that I don't even know what to say. The link between diversity and development has been studied to death in political economy of 2000s, there are systematic, robust, consensus-forming results that ethnic diversity is bad for investment, public good provision and thus growth: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...7804001129, https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/...3F53060DF6, https://academic.oup.com/qje/article-abs...43/1934019,

[SadGit]

Basically it means that what you think means fuck all. I could write that in more flowery and technical language, but that's the gist of it.

It came off more rude than intended and perhaps unproductive, certainly not in a tone befitting this forum, my apologies to all (even the pesky French). Shouldnt post with a fever I guess. But the overall point still stands. Hungary has seen a total collapse of the state more than once in living memory. They have been working these last 20 odd years to rebuild a state worth living in for their citizens, and are perhaps not too thrilled at the thought of Germany once again deciding which people should have room for living in their neighbourhood.

Re. northern wellfare states. I dont blame migrants for the downfall of those, they merely hasten the fall. But Im unconvinced by any economic arguments as to the benefit of immigration. I dont believe helping 0.001% of the worlds poor here is morally superior to helping far more at local lvls of cost of living.
And yes, having been born in a country with a very homogeneous population Im not thrilled with what our never citizens have added to the Danish society.
The crimerate is one thing, but the type of crime is shocking to a middle aged man. Driveby shootings was something N.W.A. rapped about in my youth, not something from the local news. Frederik and Christian/Kristian have allways been on the list of popular names, given that all kings going back some 800 years have taken that name, with changing fashions topping the list. Last year the most popular boys name was Noah. But perhaps thats because latinisation of a prophets name leads to some 17 different spellings and Danmarks Statistik choose not to add those together - had they, the new nr 1 would be ahead by some 140%.

[Gustaran]

Hungary has seen a total collapse of the state more than once in living memory. They have been working these last 20 odd years to rebuild a state worth living in for their citizens,

Unfortunately it seems that some people have a rather different understanding of what is a "state worth living in":

In the small Tolna county village of Őcsény, villagers fanaticized by the Hungarian government’s anti-immigrant, hatemongering propaganda threatened to murder the local guesthouse owner Zoltán Fenyvesi for offering to host refugee children who had been granted asylum by the Hungarian state. A brick was thrown at his van, and the tires of two of his vehicles were slashed.

And here is what prime Minister Orbán had to say about the incident:

I cannot find anything wrong in this. People do not want to accept migrants. They do not want to accept them into their country and they do not want to accept them into their village.

So we have

a) children who have been legally granted asylum
b) are supposed to have a short time holiday (privately funded!)
c) are prevented from doing so by local violent protests
d) and worst of all the Hungarian prime minister (!) sees no problem there

I feel that is just terrible. 

Driveby shootings was something N.W.A. rapped about in my youth, not something from the local news. Frederik and Christian/Kristian have allways been on the list of popular names, given that all kings going back some 800 years have taken that name, with changing fashions topping the list. Last year the most popular boys name was Noah. But perhaps thats because latinisation of a prophets name leads to some 17 different spellings and Danmarks Statistik choose not to add those together - had they, the new nr 1 would be ahead by some 140%.

Sorry, but I think this is rather funny. I wonder what elderly Danish people thought while you were listening to N.W.A. ?
Probably something along those lines "What's wrong today? For hundreds of years people have listened to beautiful Danish music,  now they all like this noise from criminals in the USA".
Also keep in mind that the definition of what constitutes a homogenous population may change in a few generations. Take the Irish population in the US for example. For our US forum members this is most likely common knowledge, but I just recently learned that as late as 1909 Irish were openly discriminated against ("Irish need not apply"). Fast forward 100 years and I doubt anyone would consider white Americans with Irish descent a minority.
Same with Italian workers who came to Germany in the 1950s: At the time, Germans eyed them suspiciously - 50 years later any Italian is regarded as a good European neighbour from a Christian nation.

So while I think it is valid to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of a changing population, one has to be careful not to fall into the trap of glorifying the "good old times".

[AdrienIer]

Xenophobia in hungary doesn't exist right ?

[Rowain]

@Gustaran

Frederik and Christian/Kristian have allways been on the list of popular names, given that all kings going back some 800 years have taken that name, with changing fashions topping the list. Last year the most popular boys name was Noah. But perhaps thats because latinisation of a prophets name leads to some 17 different spellings and Danmarks Statistik choose not to add those together - had they, the new nr 1 would be ahead by some 140%.

Here
are the top 50 Babynames from Danemark 2016. I'm sure the fact that Liam is ranked 23rd is a clear sign that danish culture is in grave danger.

[Rowain]

Xenophobia in hungary doesn't exist right ?

While I do agree that Hungary is very xenophob and that it is fanned on by Orban who uses the ageold "Find a scapegoat for the masses and you can get away with anything"-trick I do have a problem with calling everyone who feels uneasy when 10's-100's of thousands cross the border (like it has happened to Austria/Germany and still happens to Greece and Italy) a xenophob.

Beeing against xenophobia does neither mean we have to accept each and everyone who comes nor that we have to adjust our way of living to their wishes/believes. As the hoist nation we have the right to expect that our guests adjust to our way not the other way round.

[SadGit]

Here
are the top 50 Babynames from Danemark 2016. I'm sure the fact that Liam is ranked 23rd is a clear sign that danish culture is in grave danger.

Shockingly Hollywood movies were shown in Denmark even when I was a child. Lots of Deans and Brians among my generation. Like the Liams of today they all had parents with last names ending in -sen, but I suspect the Liams are not all social class 4 or 5 like the Brians were (we even had enough Kennys to make South Parks instantly recognisable).

I didnt post it as a "the sky is falling" remark, but as an easy way of showing the population change in my still short lifetime. You wont find many "potato" children named after Mehmed. In early 70´ies migrants were less than 2 % of the Danish population. Today 1st and 2nd generation i 12,5%.

[SadGit]

[quote pid='649998' dateline='1508494972']

Sorry, but I think this is rather funny. I wonder what elderly Danish people thought while you were listening to N.W.A. ?
Probably something along those lines "What's wrong today? For hundreds of years people have listened to beautiful Danish music,  now they all like this noise from criminals in the USA".
Also keep in mind that the definition of what constitutes a homogenous population may change in a few generations. Take the Irish population in the US for example. For our US forum members this is most likely common knowledge, but I just recently learned that as late as 1909 Irish were openly discriminated against ("Irish need not apply"). Fast forward 100 years and I doubt anyone would consider white Americans with Irish descent a minority.
Same with Italian workers who came to Germany in the 1950s: At the time, Germans eyed them suspiciously - 50 years later any Italian is regarded as a good European neighbour from a Christian nation.

So while I think it is valid to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of a changing population, one has to be careful not to fall into the trap of glorifying the "good old times".
[/quote]

Comparing to US melting pot, it allways seemed as if much of the draw was that everyone could go to the states and become and American. The goal was integration and assimilation from both state and subject. That does not seem to be the case in Europe these days, leastways not in Denmark. Instead we see 3rd generation more focused on origin culture and not interrest in even integration. And ethnic and culture clashes are kept alive brought along.
2 weeks ago an Erdogan supporter taking his kids for lunch had an argument at a McDs with two kurds. half hour later he was run down in the street. A sociology phd student spent some months at a school last year and reported insane lvls of racism. Blacks (mostly Somalis)openly called names that make the N-word sound like the kiss of an angel, in front of teaches who did nothing. But they also didnt respond to the names they themselves were called by their students. Probably because they didnt speak Arabic. the phd was told in interviews that as long as they didnt bother the potatoes, the blacks were fair game.

Economically speaking the "good old times" were good, a wellfare state was built and social cohesion was maintained. Over the last 10+ years we are seing private healthcare/insurance, more private schooling and white flight rush amongst families with children. That alone will strain a society built on very high taxation with a promise of a high lvl of public service. We can talk of the irony of high earners emmigrating, but that still leaves the world one wellfare state short.

[darrelljs]

There are legitimate reasons not to accept large numbers of immigrants other than xenophobia. The problem is that its pretty easy to use those reasons as cover for actual xenophobia.

I found the disagreement between Denmark and Sweden on this issue fascinating (how its portrayed in the media I have access to may be inaccurate). Sweden embraced the refugees, Denmark did not. The stated reasons were "to help people" and to "prevent our welfare system from being overwhelmed". Sweden (and much of the rest of the world) seemed to think the real reason was Denmark wanted to keep Scandinavia for Scandinavians. Is that fair?

I have a friend how lives in Malmö but worked in Copenhagen. No longer, since border controls were re-instituted on the bridge connecting the two, and the increased commute time forced him to find a local job. That definitely wasn't fair.

Darrell