RB PBEM 2 - de Krill of Fronce

[Krill]

Yup. And that fish is going to an island city. Basically, settling hte flood plain nets me an extra 2 food for hte peninsula, but minus 4 food for the (desert) island. The island city is going to need every bit of food it can get, but the ability to move the islands desert hill to the black dot city helps with the MM.

Late game I'm likely to go nuts working on that MM, but whatever.

[Krill]

Looks like me and Darrell are coming closer to the agreement that we need to work together and be aggressive, as we both feel that we are soon to be excluded from the tech scene. Luckily...with a new understanding of the tech multipliers, that isn't so bad, and should lead to some violence, specifically, Darrell is preparing to deal with an invasion from Yaz. I'm happy with this, and am about to spam cities all of hte map, but set up trireme pickets to deal with anything from the west.

Also, ignore the GE sugestion, I'm not going to do that...only city I could do it from is Vp, but it couldn't beat LS to the second GP...

(8:30:14 PM) de krill of Fronce: Yo dude
(8:30:39 PM) de krill of Fronce: You read Dreylins' post?
(8:30:45 PM) de krill of Fronce: in the Public thread?
(8:35:11 PM) Darrell: yeah
(8:35:15 PM) Darrell: that was my wtf moment of the day
(8:35:27 PM) de krill of Fronce: I know.
(8:35:38 PM) de krill of Fronce: I was wondering why I researched AH so fast
(8:35:53 PM) de krill of Fronce: I have a proposal for you about it though
(8:35:58 PM) Darrell: I need the wheel next, I bet I can get that lickity split
(8:36:01 PM) Darrell: probably cost me 2 beakers
(8:36:11 PM) Darrell: okay, I had some ideas as well but yours are probably better
(8:36:16 PM) de krill of Fronce: Doubt it
(8:36:18 PM) Darrell: wanted to discuss somethign else too, but it can wait
(8:36:34 PM) de krill of Fronce: Well, it was just a simple proposal, that the two of us are likely to start getting shunned soon
(8:36:48 PM) de krill of Fronce: You with your insane MFG, and CY
(8:37:07 PM) Darrell: and you with your insane wonder count
(8:37:37 PM) de krill of Fronce: I was going to say because I'm a known value and probably better to take me down at some point
(8:37:57 PM) de krill of Fronce: But yeah, soon to have 2 decent wonders.
(8:37:58 PM) Darrell: tbh the thought crossed my mind. I have good production and you are chasing wonders
(8:38:11 PM) Darrell: call me stoopid but I don't see conflict between us as a good idea
(8:38:17 PM) de krill of Fronce: Yup
(8:38:21 PM) Darrell: probably for the same reasons you alluded to, we need allies
(8:38:40 PM) de krill of Fronce: And if we were to look for othr allies and war, we'd effectively just be tools
(8:38:53 PM) de krill of Fronce: "Let them war and slow themselves down" etc
(8:39:04 PM) Darrell: right...which is what I plan on talking to you about in a second in fact
(8:39:16 PM) de krill of Fronce: ok
(8:39:20 PM) de krill of Fronce: Floor is yours
(8:39:47 PM) de krill of Fronce: (btw, I've done my back in, so if I'm afk for a few minutes it's because I need to keep on stretching and walking)
(8:39:50 PM) Darrell: well, first on the tech side, with trading on the only way to leverage the discount is to know the tech paths of people you aren't trading wtih
(8:40:24 PM) Darrell: you can then wait for those techs to get traded around and pick them up insanely cheap
(8:40:34 PM) Darrell: for a 2fer situation, this promotes deep deep tech runs
(8:40:40 PM) Darrell: then backfilling
(8:41:01 PM) Darrell: so taht was my though there, although tbh I don't have a clue how to best leverage it yet
(8:41:09 PM) Darrell: On the other side...how frequent are your communications with Yaz?
(8:41:26 PM) Darrell: other side = other topic
(8:41:32 PM) Darrell: brb
(8:42:01 PM) de krill of Fronce: Yaz?
(8:42:05 PM) de krill of Fronce: Now and then
(8:42:21 PM) de krill of Fronce: other than the pokes about playing the save, probably 3 times a week
(8:42:31 PM) de krill of Fronce: Nothing deep and meaningful, anyway
(8:42:53 PM) de krill of Fronce: Aslo, that's about right, have leverage to trade for lower techs
(8:43:58 PM) de krill of Fronce: Between the two of us, 2 religions, 2 shrines, GLH, Collosus, and no fin civs...
(8:44:32 PM) de krill of Fronce: And the severe lack of cotageable land, both of us could probably keep up with the other 4 if this game devovled into a 4v2
(8:44:43 PM) de krill of Fronce: (not that we want it to, obviously, but it's a safety net)
(8:44:58 PM) Darrell: I think we could, at least until our econominc wonders expire
(8:45:34 PM) de krill of Fronce: Which is probably long enough to take enough land
(8:45:40 PM) Darrell: yeah, we'd have to be aggressive
(8:45:41 PM) de krill of Fronce: for continued dominance
(8:45:46 PM) Darrell: I have another plan suggestion along those lines
(8:45:59 PM) Darrell: I think I can use my first GM to build civil service
(8:46:10 PM) Darrell: wouldn't it be neat to bulb machiner and go after people with maces?
(8:46:19 PM) Darrell: of course dreylin's post makes that a two edged sword
(8:46:24 PM) de krill of Fronce: depends, Machinery is 700 beakers. And it'd be hard to get teh GE.
(8:46:35 PM) Darrell: you have an early forge, run one in your colossus city
(8:46:40 PM) Darrell: that's the only way I coul dhtink of
(8:46:45 PM) Darrell: probably loses to stonehenge?
(8:46:59 PM) de krill of Fronce: yeah
(8:47:06 PM) de krill of Fronce: due a GP in something like 6 turns
(8:47:08 PM) Darrell: the double bulb followed by blitzkrieg approach could work
(8:47:31 PM) Darrell: so you could get a GE in about 34 turns then
(8:47:38 PM) Darrell: of course you have pollutin, which is good and bad
(8:47:44 PM) Darrell: good that its faster, bad if you lose it
(8:47:57 PM) Darrell: anyway, something to keep in mind. I've got the civil service side covered I think
(8:48:01 PM) Darrell: okay, so back to yaz
(8:48:26 PM) Darrell: I have reason to believe he is taking the army from his war with ruff, loading it onto galleys, and coming for my warrior guarded great lighthouse
(8:48:29 PM) Darrell: I want to sink him at see
(8:48:31 PM) Darrell: sea
(8:49:00 PM) de krill of Fronce: hmmm that sucks
(8:49:09 PM) Darrell: I've looked at the various approaches he has, and I think I know the one he'll take, but it would be great a) to make sure, and b) if he thinks we are massing at each others borders
(8:49:10 PM) de krill of Fronce: otoh, Galleys do tend to work en masse
(8:49:14 PM) Darrell: yeah
(8:49:16 PM) Darrell: I did the math
(8:49:26 PM) Darrell: I can hit a stack of 4 galleys with 7 and have great odds of taking them all down
(8:49:35 PM) Darrell: if they are full, I am trading 150 hammers for 355
(8:49:49 PM) Darrell: I would have a city and production edge on top of that he couldn't keep up with
(8:49:52 PM) Darrell: so I'd kill him
(8:49:54 PM) de krill of Fronce: and if he has less, all the more sure he goes down
(8:49:58 PM) Darrell: exactly
(8:50:07 PM) Darrell: so I'm re-jiggering things a bit, going for galleys
(8:50:19 PM) Darrell: I have reason to believe based on his peace treaty request it will come in 10 turns
(8:50:36 PM) Darrell: I'm not sure yet if it would be good or bad for you to talk to him about me, but something to keep in mind
(8:50:53 PM) de krill of Fronce: yeah, I'll be keeping stum on you
(8:51:08 PM) Darrell: ideally he tells you his plan. I know what I would do in his situations, but not necessarily what he will do
(8:51:14 PM) Darrell: stum = ?
(8:51:22 PM) de krill of Fronce: quiet
(8:51:24 PM) Darrell: ah
(8:51:32 PM) Darrell: not commonly used in the states
(8:51:51 PM) de krill of Fronce: Well, Dreylin and Ruff aren't gving anything away, for the past 3 weeks
(8:52:02 PM) Darrell: ruff is role playing japan
(8:52:03 PM) de krill of Fronce: Yaz hasn't said an awful lot either, but said a few things
(8:52:07 PM) Darrell: which probably takes him out of contention
(8:52:08 PM) de krill of Fronce: yeah, I know...
(8:52:17 PM) de krill of Fronce: figured out what he was doing in the first chat
(8:52:43 PM) Darrell: I haven't figured out if there is a goofy way I can leverage that with yaz either
(8:52:47 PM) Darrell: probably not
(8:53:08 PM) Darrell: but in any case, something to keep in mind if yaz seems to be fishing about me
(8:53:19 PM) de krill of Fronce: yup
(8:53:33 PM) Darrell: If he thinks my units are massing on a border city I settled aggressively towards you (or vice versa) that would not be a bad thing
(8:53:44 PM) Darrell: especially if in the name of coordination he asked for your help on the tactics
(8:53:59 PM) de krill of Fronce: Well, my MM shit has me just settling the rest of muy lands pretty fast now
(8:54:29 PM) Darrell: have fun chopping all that jungle
(8:54:34 PM) de krill of Fronce: meh
(8:54:40 PM) Darrell: that corn/sugar city is only behind the sorry as rice city on my list right now
(8:54:52 PM) de krill of Fronce: only got 2 jungle gems, rest I can slow chop, and use the 2 fish city as slavery central
(8:55:02 PM) Darrell: very true
(8:55:14 PM) Darrell: those gems are great tiles, one of my favorite resources whent hey don't have junle on them
(8:55:24 PM) Darrell: still remeber the capital I got with 3 of them (on a river) and Corn and Pig.
(8:56:59 PM) de krill of Fronce: broken

[Krill]

Also, need to figure out how I'm going to build the Collosus...

[Krill]

Slight alteration to the plan: slaved LS this turn, overflow next turn to the settler, which basically speeds everything up a turn, but means the WB in LS is just going to mess about for a bit...and free religion spread of Hinduism to LS, woot. Curently running at -2 gpt, but with the shrine (GP pops in 5 more turns) Ill be at breakeven at 100% science, at least until I plant cities 3 and 4.

Currently build settler for black dot in Vp (3 more turns...) and settler from LS due in 4.

Darrell warrior showed up around where my front city will be, and he does have 2 settlers out to settle that island...I'm toying with the idea of informing Yaz about this is face to face or via Ruff (now I know they are at peace they have to be working together).

Well, that I suppose is the power of hooking that third resource food, plus settling the 3 food tile for much faster growth to size 2, 3 etc. No way in hell am I going to go up against Darrell if I have a choice, I'm just going to bide my time...but I need to figure some way of not falling insanely far behind compared to him, or becoming an outcast if I decide to work with Darrell and everyone else wants me not to.

[Krill]

Coastal/sea tiles for city locations (for moia, assuming max tile count).

City 1 (LS): 11/0
City 2 (Vp): 10/4
City 3: 11/1
City 4: 8/4
City 5: 7/0
City 6: 12/2
City 7: 11/3
City 8: 7/5
City 9: 10/3

Now, the reaosn that I have started to look at this, is because I recently realised I made a mistake, or rather, that I would be making a mistake after I decided to grab hinduism. Now that Vp is about to be shrined, and that Hinduism is going to be spread, Vp is the obvious Wal Street city, leaving me with a lone NW slot in VP. If I were to put Moia in there, I wouldn't be able to pair it up with either IW or the HE, whichon this hammer poor map would place me at a disadvantage once the warfare starts. OTOH, Vp is capable of 9 fpt without the pigs, so is a capable GT draft city (and I am going to be sticking with Nationhood for most if not all of the game). It can use the pigs once every 4 turns if I have to draft it every turn. Hence Vp gets WS and GT, LS gets NE.

So, that leaves me with Moia, HE, IW, WP, NP (much weaker than normal...), FP, Hermitage, OU, RC, and Rushmore, to combine and place. Moia, HE, IW and WP are likely to be paired up, and I think the best pairings are Moia/NE in a core city (cities 3, 6, 7, and 9 look good, most likely city 7 though), and IW/WP in city 5, or a good land based production city else where. OU is a weird one, I'm expecting to run the OCC strat of just adding every single GP I get to one city, running Rep and teching from the specialists. Which is the reasons I'm probably going to go balls out for the GL, and try to build Pyramids somewhere (possible Vp, actually, even though it would be nice to build it in LS). OU would fit into LS and let me easily work all of the scientists I need there, so that is a good start.

[Krill]

If Darrell wanted to come for me in about 30 turns probably nothing I could do to stop him unless I got lucky an ambushed him while he had the majority of his army on galleys. Seriously need to keep him as an ally while I build up my economy, and tech well. TBH, a 4v2 is probably not far from my best interests, if I'm the small side of the 2...

(3/25/2010 11:17:23 PM) Darrell: hey
(3/25/2010 11:17:35 PM) Darrell: wait
(3/25/2010 11:17:41 PM) Darrell: you can get a GE but can't bulb machinery?
(3/25/2010 11:17:59 PM) Darrell: can; must equal can't
(3/25/2010 11:18:10 PM) Darrell: that's fine, it might be worth slow teching
(3/25/2010 11:18:15 PM) Darrell: I think early maces will be really powerful
(3/25/2010 11:18:36 PM) Darrell: as we get closer we can see if it makes sense for one of us to save gold to fund the other teching machinery
(3/25/2010 11:19:26 PM) Darrell: and of course machinery leads to caravels, which allow naval dominance
(3/26/2010 11:08:56 AM) Krill: Yeah, sorry about that mispelling; I can't get the GE. the fund and research for machinery would be something to consider.
(1:04:43 PM) Darrell: Yeah...a long way off by the though of early maces makes me warm and fuzzy inside
(1:04:55 PM) Darrell: by = but
(1:19:09 PM) Krill: Is it just me or is something twisted happening with te diplomacy now?
(1:19:16 PM) Krill: *the
(1:42:16 PM) Darrell: Hmm...going to have to be a bit more specific
(1:42:21 PM) Darrell: I know Yaz is up to something
(1:42:26 PM) Darrell: Dreylin is pretty quiet
(1:42:37 PM) Darrell: SL is coming our way
(1:42:38 PM) Krill: Dreylins thread has been quite active recently
(1:42:42 PM) Darrell: Ah.
(1:42:49 PM) Darrell: I wonder what he's up to then.
(1:42:59 PM) Darrell: BTW, I want SL's workboat to go to our south
(1:43:06 PM) Darrell: My excuse will be to meet your warrior
(1:43:08 PM) Krill: actually
(1:43:13 PM) Krill: can you kill his workboat?
(1:43:14 PM) Darrell: so can you put him on the west coast
(1:43:16 PM) Darrell: eh
(1:43:18 PM) Darrell: not if I want alphabet
(1:43:20 PM) Krill: yeah I know
(1:43:28 PM) Krill: not a nice thing to suggest, especially for that
(1:43:34 PM) Krill: but I technically owe him MC
(1:43:49 PM) Darrell: As a trade or for free?
(1:43:49 PM) Krill: that could be a nice big ace in the hole for you
(1:43:53 PM) Krill: as a trade
(1:43:54 PM) Krill: not for tech
(1:44:06 PM) Krill: he gave me a load of diplo and espionage stuff on Dreylin
(1:44:19 PM) Krill: which I used in the Oracle MM
(1:44:29 PM) Darrell: very interesting
(1:44:34 PM) Krill: he technically owes me a beaker credit as well
(1:44:35 PM) Darrell: so you think that was the difference
(1:44:41 PM) Krill: but considering triremes....
(1:44:51 PM) Darrell: so, here is one option, which I am not sure you will go for
(1:45:06 PM) Darrell: but I could gift you sailing and you could kill his workboat and DoW after I get alphabet
(1:45:18 PM) Darrell: you can't trade techs while at war
(1:45:25 PM) Darrell: of course you are soured for the rest of the game which might not be a good thing
(1:46:21 PM) Krill: thing is, I don;t mind trading him MC; he did his part, I'm just trying to make sure that Yaz doesn;t get gifted MC (there is a no trade clause on MC, but you know what paranoia is like)
(1:46:36 PM) Darrell: yeah, yaz getting MC would suck big time
(1:46:53 PM) Darrell: I wnat his workboat dead cause I want to get magellan's
(1:47:14 PM) Darrell: ruff's continent is a big mess for me, i ahve a long detour while Sl sailed through a "canal" made by yaz's capital
(1:47:52 PM) Darrell: But I don't want to guarantee hate from SL just for magellan's I guess
(1:48:44 PM) Krill: hmmmm
(1:49:11 PM) Krill: I suppose it comes down to how much you want it.
(1:49:21 PM) Darrell: yeah
(1:49:45 PM) Darrell: I think I will try and guide his WB south to your warrior
(1:50:55 PM) Krill: Something else to consider is Currency
(1:51:06 PM) Krill: ie
(1:51:11 PM) Krill: do you tech it, or trade for it
(1:51:29 PM) Krill: if you could trade for it, and for CoL from Dreylin
(1:51:31 PM) Darrell: tech it is my tentative plan
(1:51:44 PM) Darrell: but the reality is need harbors more than markets and an extra trade ourte
(1:52:09 PM) Krill: Compass was something I was wondering about
(1:52:27 PM) Darrell: harbors for me are massively important
(1:52:31 PM) Krill: yup
(1:52:41 PM) Krill: You could easily get Compass traded around to everyone
(1:52:56 PM) Darrell: and i am prioritzing machinery, and compass+machinery leads to optics and caravel dominance
(1:53:11 PM) Krill: yeah
(1:53:16 PM) Krill: plus a CS bulb
(1:53:41 PM) Darrell: exactly
(1:53:52 PM) Darrell: caravels, harbors, beauracracy, macemen
(1:54:01 PM) Darrell: just too much goodness
(1:54:15 PM) Darrell: and us with half cost forges and OR
(1:57:43 PM) Krill: Reckon there is ivory on the map?
(1:57:47 PM) Darrell: yeah
(1:57:48 PM) Krill: I've not seen any
(1:57:53 PM) Krill: oh?
(1:57:53 PM) Darrell: t-hawk didn't do any edits like that
(1:57:59 PM) Krill: oh christ
(1:58:02 PM) Darrell: unless the map naturally had no ivory I bet its somewhere
(1:58:56 PM) Krill: Decisions decisions
(1:59:22 PM) Darrell: you think dreylin a) has ivory, b) hate for you due to oracle, c) envy of you due to wonders, d) plans your direction?
(1:59:49 PM) Darrell: I'm going to gift you sailing gratis when I get alphabet
(1:59:55 PM) Darrell: so you can make tiremes
(1:59:56 PM) Darrell: just in case
(2:00:24 PM) Krill: well, I technically had a trade in place with Ruff for archery/sailing the prerequisites
(2:00:34 PM) Krill: but not sure if I'll be meeting him any time soon
(2:00:42 PM) Krill: so thank you
(2:00:52 PM) Krill: I should only need to guard 1, 2 tiles at most.
(2:01:14 PM) Krill: a) 1 in 4 chance, if neither of us have seen any
(2:01:15 PM) Darrell: 2 tiremes per tile and I bet your golden
(2:01:26 PM) Darrell: what do you think he would bring this early? 3 galleys?
(2:01:50 PM) Krill: b) not necessarily hate, but enmity
(2:01:58 PM) Krill: c) yes.
(2:02:22 PM) Krill: d) either towards me or SL
(2:02:36 PM) Krill: and I probably make the most sense as SL is on the same island, and we all know how great that works out
(2:02:46 PM) Krill: yeah, 3 galleys, 4 max
(2:02:51 PM) Krill: that is alot of units to make
(2:03:04 PM) Darrell: so probably you need 4 tirmes to guard 2 tiles
(2:03:12 PM) Krill: can easily sink 1 galley, see what the outcome is, and then maybe sink another if above 1.4 health
(2:03:17 PM) Krill: get a promo the next turn
(2:03:22 PM) Krill: yup
(2:05:34 PM) Krill: btw
(2:05:53 PM) Krill: You can't play hte turn until you get home, right? so a further 8 hours?
(2:06:23 PM) Darrell: 2 hours
(2:06:25 PM) Darrell: going home for lunch
(2:06:29 PM) Darrell: but that's pretty late for you
(2:06:29 PM) Krill: woot
(2:06:35 PM) Krill: yeah
(2:06:35 PM) Darrell: oh wait
(2:06:36 PM) Darrell: not that late
(2:06:42 PM) Krill: I demand you play it NOW, damnit
(2:06:46 PM) Krill: yup
(2:06:51 PM) Darrell: hah-hah...I wish I wasn't stuck here
(2:06:53 PM) Darrell: is it with me
(2:06:55 PM) Krill: 1600-1700 here
(2:07:00 PM) Krill: yeah
(2:07:02 PM) Darrell: I checked this morning and dreylin had it
(2:07:06 PM) Krill: Ruff played it quarter of an hour ago
(2:07:27 PM) Darrell: if they can play just 90 minutes earlier I could play it
(2:07:51 PM) Krill: problem is Dreylin
(2:07:58 PM) Krill: lazy bastard gets up after Ruff
(2:08:08 PM) Darrell: too late to switch the order as well
(2:08:22 PM) Krill: yeah
(2:47:25 PM) Darrell: you know, I think I am going to stop posting my galley making micro
(2:47:32 PM) Darrell: don't want yaz to get any ideas baesd on post count
(2:47:38 PM) Krill: er
(2:47:42 PM) Krill: better idea
(2:47:47 PM) Krill: keep on editing one post
(2:47:54 PM) Darrell: hah!
(2:47:56 PM) Darrell: that is a good diea
(2:47:57 PM) Darrell: idea
(2:48:06 PM) Krill: Keeps hte lurkers informed
(2:48:41 PM) Krill: fwiw, I agree with Griselda that hidden forums and passwords aren;t the way to go...but it would be nce to remove the meta game stuff like noting a threads activity
(2:48:56 PM) Darrell: we stopped posting our sumeria strats
(2:49:12 PM) Darrell: exploit struck us as the kind of nit that woudl read our forums
(2:49:21 PM) Darrell: no evidence mind you, but we were paranoid
(2:49:36 PM) Krill: I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough...
(2:50:01 PM) Darrell: as the saying goes, "just cause your paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you"
(2:50:58 PM) Krill: yup
(3:43:42 PM) Darrell: save uploaded
(3:43:55 PM) Krill: still waiting on the email...
(3:46:12 PM) Krill: got it
(3:46:35 PM) Krill: woot
(3:46:45 PM) Krill: finally have higher crop yield that you
Darrell: is typing...

[Krill]

Interesting...Ruff certainly knows how to manipulate me...only questin is, how can I get both Ruff and Darrell to both do something for me for killing SLs' workboat...

(4:31:14 PM) de krill of Fronce: Yo Ruff
(4:31:26 PM) de krill of Fronce: You available for a chat, or busy at work?
(5:17:52 PM) Luff_hi: chat is ok
(5:20:00 PM) de krill of Fronce: Hi mate
(5:20:36 PM) de krill of Fronce: considering that alphabet is nearing, I was wondering how you wanted to handle the techs trades we agreed between us, if we didn;t have contact.
(5:21:42 PM) Luff_hi: you have contact with Darrell?
(5:21:49 PM) de krill of Fronce: Yeah?
(5:22:03 PM) Luff_hi: I think I have lined up some trades with Darrell so we could go via him
(5:22:26 PM) Luff_hi: can you remind me what we agreed to trade?
(5:22:58 PM) de krill of Fronce: IW+HBR from me, for Hunting/Archery/Sailing from you, and you remember the favour
(5:23:17 PM) Luff_hi: no
(5:23:29 PM) de krill of Fronce: hmm?
(5:23:30 PM) Luff_hi: not off the top of my head
(5:23:41 PM) Luff_hi: might be buried in my thread
(5:24:25 PM) de krill of Fronce: ah, maybe a misunderstanding; we agreed that the deal favoured you beaker wise, and that would get knocked off the top of a later tech trade
(5:24:59 PM) de krill of Fronce: 450 from me, for 197 beakers
(5:25:08 PM) Luff_hi: yeah ... ok with that
(5:25:46 PM) de krill of Fronce: cool
(5:26:16 PM) Luff_hi: 250 beakers is a pretty big shortfall
(5:26:48 PM) de krill of Fronce: Well, I also have MC waiting to trade as well
(5:26:53 PM) de krill of Fronce: so closer to 700 beakers
(5:27:00 PM) de krill of Fronce: if you wanted to trade for MC off me.
(5:27:31 PM) Luff_hi: arr - can I put that on the back burner for the moment
(5:27:47 PM) Luff_hi: def interested but not sure where I can pull that type of beaker value from
(5:29:35 PM) Luff_hi: I might have a boat heading your direction soonish ... if I hit a dead end near you, how about I gift him to you (with map) and you sail him back to my land for me ... how many beakers is that worth?
(5:30:54 PM) de krill of Fronce: back.
(5:31:15 PM) de krill of Fronce: hmm, MC, np, don't mind putting that on the back burner
(5:31:35 PM) de krill of Fronce: and I understand, not easy to get that amount of beakers from the aether
(5:31:52 PM) Luff_hi: oh ... I could oracle something and trade that for MC
(5:32:24 PM) de krill of Fronce: and if it were a galle, I'm not sure, but I would definitely be interested in such a deal, perhaps more if I could *buy* the galley
(5:32:37 PM) de krill of Fronce: as opposed to sailing it all the way back
(5:32:51 PM) Luff_hi: well - sailing it back does mean you get trade routes
(5:33:03 PM) Luff_hi: but I guess you could build your own boat
(5:33:27 PM) de krill of Fronce: I will have a wb out heading in your direction in 3 turns...kinda want those trade routes soon
(5:33:40 PM) Luff_hi: ok - fair enough
(5:33:53 PM) Luff_hi: guess we will just wave as we sail past each other
(5:34:35 PM) de krill of Fronce: (my land is a dead end...)
(5:34:55 PM) de krill of Fronce: at least, it is to the west
(5:35:02 PM) de krill of Fronce: so no reaching Dreylin that way
(5:35:51 PM) Luff_hi: oh
(5:35:55 PM) de krill of Fronce: yeah
(5:36:10 PM) de krill of Fronce: Which kinda means you are in a decent position to get circumnavigation
(5:36:17 PM) de krill of Fronce: as you are in the middle of the map
(5:36:25 PM) de krill of Fronce: and me and Dreylin are pretty much screwed
(5:36:28 PM) Luff_hi: yeah - if I sent out boats right off
(5:36:43 PM) Luff_hi: SL has a boat in the water that is further W than I currently am
(5:36:50 PM) Luff_hi: want to kill it for me?
(5:36:57 PM) de krill of Fronce: what's in it for me ;P
(5:38:15 PM) Luff_hi: Japan gratitude?
(5:38:24 PM) Luff_hi: wet sloppy kisses?
(5:38:35 PM) de krill of Fronce: From Toku?
(5:38:41 PM) de krill of Fronce: that a good thing?
(5:38:43 PM) Luff_hi: Japan will never attack France?
(5:38:51 PM) Luff_hi: they could be ... lol
(5:38:57 PM) de krill of Fronce: ha
(5:40:33 PM) de krill of Fronce: As much as I like the idea of a very long NAP with what looks to be the preeminent warmonger civ in the game, I'm also kinda backed into a corner, and you aren't really the most threatening player to me right now. That'll probably change in the future and I'll regret this decision, but I think I'll hav to turn that one down.
(5:40:41 PM) de krill of Fronce: Although that probably just set off you BS detector
(5:40:50 PM) de krill of Fronce: Going to have to work on that thing
(5:40:54 PM) de krill of Fronce: maybe booby trap it
(5:41:49 PM) Luff_hi: what would you like to stop SL getting circum nav bonus?
(5:42:29 PM) de krill of Fronce: *shrug*
(5:43:17 PM) de krill of Fronce: Probably sounds bad, coming from me, but I'm not in hte business of pissing people off for no reason
(5:43:30 PM) de krill of Fronce: No way I get Circum
(5:43:34 PM) Luff_hi: you could just close borders with him and not let him thru
(5:43:40 PM) de krill of Fronce: there is always that
(5:43:52 PM) Luff_hi: which is mildly pissing off
(5:44:05 PM) de krill of Fronce: or could pray that barbs get him
(5:44:11 PM) Luff_hi: that is my other hope
(5:44:18 PM) Luff_hi: and that he takes a wrong turn somewhere
(5:45:19 PM) de krill of Fronce: Yeah
(5:46:43 PM) Luff_hi: I'm also thinking of tempting you with a 'Make Japan Do Your Bidding'
(5:46:58 PM) Luff_hi: note that means you can play that card once and Japan will do what you say
(5:47:14 PM) Luff_hi: only problem is that such a note is too valuable for a circum nav bonus
(5:47:35 PM) de krill of Fronce: oh
(5:47:45 PM) de krill of Fronce: now that is something I would like to know the price of.
(5:47:56 PM) Luff_hi: i thought you would
(5:48:17 PM) Luff_hi: well ... think about what you would like Japan to do in the future and pitch it to me
(5:48:36 PM) Luff_hi: I am not sure what you would see as valuable and what your wouldn't
(5:48:44 PM) de krill of Fronce: hmmm
(5:49:05 PM) Luff_hi: some things that I would not agree to ...
(5:49:07 PM) Luff_hi: city gift
(5:49:21 PM) Luff_hi: large tech gift
(5:49:28 PM) Luff_hi: permanent resource gift
(5:49:38 PM) Luff_hi: (less it was a duplicate)
(5:49:43 PM) de krill of Fronce: "Retire civ"
(5:49:57 PM) Luff_hi: yeah ... add that to the NO list
(5:50:02 PM) Luff_hi: somethings on the YES list
(5:50:06 PM) Luff_hi: war declaration
(5:50:14 PM) Luff_hi: not trade clause
(5:50:22 PM) Luff_hi: AP / UN perma-vote
(5:50:52 PM) Luff_hi: stop war
(5:51:10 PM) Luff_hi: anyway - have a think about it and pitch me something
(5:51:32 PM) Luff_hi: it would only kick in if you could demonstrate that you stopped SL getting circum nav
(5:51:38 PM) de krill of Fronce: If you don;t mind me asking, what are you planning on teching for the alphabet trade?
(5:51:54 PM) Luff_hi: SL and I haven't talked re alphabet trade yet
(5:52:00 PM) Luff_hi: was thinking Aeth
(5:52:22 PM) de krill of Fronce: hmmm
(5:52:34 PM) Luff_hi: but if everyone else has alphabet then I don't really need it
(5:53:06 PM) de krill of Fronce: If you realy wanted to get everyones attention, go for Compass
(5:53:17 PM) Luff_hi: yeah ... nice
(5:53:21 PM) Luff_hi: but need IW for that one
(5:54:13 PM) de krill of Fronce: If Darrell agrees to the forwarding process, you should get IW...
(5:54:48 PM) de krill of Fronce: 3 turns after Alphabet is researched
(5:55:15 PM) Luff_hi: yeah ... pbem tech trades are so slow sometimes
(5:55:17 PM) Luff_hi: right - anyway ... have to stop chatting ... will talk later
(5:55:27 PM) de krill of Fronce: np, cya around, have a god weekend

[Krill]

From Darrell: I got clams at the desert island to the north of LS. Not bad, for something that I had effectively written off as a waste of time, but the desert island to the west is seemingly poorer than I had hoped. At least it has the fish...



This picture is mine, showing lack of food to the south of the island. Either way, should know where I need to plant the island city in 3-4 turns.

[Krill]

Darrell is going to create a new composite map, I sent him mine, which should be quite useful in me plotting when he will run out of expansion room (I'm betting it will be a long time before I do...which is why I'm getting a move on).

However, I now have 9 mainland cities, and 2 decent island cities that I want to settle asap. I'll head for the western one, which will cost me more maintenence, but is nearer Dreylin, so I need to settle that before he does (I still don't know how close he is) and then gaurd it with triremes. The northern one can wait a short while, but I want it settled by the time Currency is in so that I am assured that both trade routes are worth 2 cpt.

I also have that island to the east, that I am unsure if I can reach. I need to plant a city to take in the corn and the horses to get there via culture on ocean. Only tile that I can plant the city on is the plains forest (you'll see in the composite with a dotmap). Hopefully, if I can expand to that island I can expand towards Yaz via some islands and snap them up before Darrell does, if not, well, I'll have the island to protect that side of my empire.

Important note, that I suppose most people understand, but best explain it now:

Archipelago maps are comparable to highland maps, they are full of choke points, don't have much cottagable land, have variable food res, and aren't really comparable to pangaea Hemispheres. You need less military to play defence in the early game because you can hold choke points with about half as much as an enemy would need to break them down, and then they need galleys and units on top of that, so attacking early on just isn't smart, unless you are like Darrell and have a massive advantage in production already, plus the plan to ambush your opponent.

"Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory." - Sun Tzu.

So, my aim is simple. With the minimal of defensive forces, grab as much land as possible, use cheap forges plus OR in addition to the great food output, to slave out every piece of infrastructure I will need. 60 hammers for 17 food...plus a happy cap around 9 once religion gets spread to a city (so base of 8, inc HR...it'll do until and unless I can revolt to rep), allowing the stacking of 4 slaves, so probably about 6 infrastructure slaves before I run out of happy (but can trade for incence and sugar from Darrell). That gives me the hammers.

For beakers, grab Pyramids, revolt to rep. Once each city has started to max out on the slaving, push them onto scientists and slow grow as happy cap increases.

For maintenence, use Collosus (probably chopped/slave overflowed in LS once I get sailing to move workers over to the forest on the other side of the bay). Grow onto 3 commerce coastal tiles, shrine in Vp, 2 gems...should be enough. Court houses only cost about 2 pop and some overflow...

For food, use the awesome amount of food res I got given

Also, plan on workshopping every tile possible and abusing SP.

[T-hawk]

Archipelago maps are comparable to highland maps, they are full of choke points, don't have much cottagable land, have variable food res, and aren't really comparable to pangaea Hemispheres. You need less military to play defence in the early game because you can hold choke points with about half as much as an enemy would need to break them down, and then they need galleys and units on top of that, so attacking early on just isn't smart, unless you are like Darrell and have a massive advantage in production already, plus the plan to ambush your opponent.

This sort of commentary is why these games exist.

By choke points, do you mean land or water? Does it take significantly more ships to break a position than to hold one? I would think that water makes for more maneuverability - somewhat easier to attack a weakly defended location by boat.