RB PBEM 2 - de Krill of Fronce

[Krill]

Thanks T-hawk

This sort of commentary is why these games exist.

By choke points, do you mean land or water? Does it take significantly more ships to break a position than to hold one? I would think that water makes for more maneuverability - somewhat easier to attack a weakly defended location by boat.

It generally takes at least 2 triremes to take out 1 defending, but 5v2 and 7v3 to be sure if there are any more on the defending side. If there are 4 defending, I generally just don't see the point. You're looking at a minimum attack force of 2 galleys, and 4 axes (I'd say 2 axe, 2 HA minimum, but even that is light). That's 33*2+26*4=170 hammers plus the triremes. 5 triremes, is 165 hammers, basically as much as the entire attack force.

Mainly water. There are 4 routes into my land by coastal tiles, 2 in the west (Basically, fish and 3S1E of there), and 2 in the east (pick any two tiles, basically). The north is a dead end according to Darrell, and I don't see a reason to not believe him. With cities allowing me to quickly reposition my navy from one side to the other of the island, whereas an attacker wouldn't be able to do that (without Darrell helping him, but then again, I can't be attacked from the east with Darrell giving OB anyway).

So 4 triremes on either side and I'm cool until Caravels. Can probably hold with only 2 triremes unless someone guns for me 100%...and they probably won't do that if Darrell is outbuilding anyone. 132 hammers, 4 two pop slaves...and an economy built on the flexibility of slaving.

If there is only a single tile to attack by, only one route that lets an opponent reach your city, all you need to do is to stack triremes on one of the tiles and your opponent has only 3 choices: retreat, attack you 2v1 with triremes (hence why MC is so important) attempting to damage enough with the first to kill with the second, or drop off all of the land units and walk slowly to the city. And sometimes that last one isn't even an option if you get the choke point right, like on an archi map, because they are stopped so far from the target it isn't even the right island. The is a fourth option if you feel ballsy, which is 1v1 with the triremes, then dump the cargo on the galleys and attack with hose, but if you get an unlucky roll, you could end up with half the units getting boated over and the other half walking, which makes for a rather easier invasion to repulse.

This all changes once galleons, and then airships, and finally fighters come on the scene, removing the choke points from the maps, but until then, it is a defence orientated builders game. Which is no bad thing: you get a lot of Ind and modern era warfare, which is a pleasing change. But it's a Maginot line approach until then. It is mainly land choke points on a highlands map, few tiles wide, hills etc, so the choke points are wider but still few in number. You'd get more choke points to handle if there were loads of small islands like a true archipelago map, which alters the game play, but with sufficient sentries you get enough forewarning to move triremes into position and block.

[Krill]

Nice point here, from the SANCTA-Kaz war. SANCTA got lucky, but here is the pic:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread...53&page=39



SANCTAs' turn, the trireme can move to either blockade or attack. Originally, the trireme was 1W of its position, stopping Kaz from reaching PM, then the second trireme showed up (you can just see the MS work boat spying for reinforcements from SANCTA). If SANCTA had just kept on stacking triremes to the east of the peack, no way Kaz could have boated PM. If the blockade had been 1E of the, then the counter blockade by Kaz would have to have been 2S of the desert hill...which would have allowed a boating of the Kaz capital.

Might as well explain in this situation why it made sense to attack even at 33% odds, as it is something that Sullla used to attack SANCTA with, along with the accusation of cheating...the SANCTA trireme had 3 choices. Stick in the ocean tile, retreat to the city, or blockade 1N of its' position. Sticking in the ocean meant it would be isolated until Kaz got a caravel and killed it at 90% odds (so 10% for us) and cost us upkeep. Sticking in the city meant we could upgrade it to a caravel, and wouldn't die...but we thought we would be last to caravels (as it turned out, falsely because we had to bulb Lib and hence needed compass), so would need multiple caravels to break out the lone caravel in the city at 30% odds, or we could take the 30% odds now on the northern trireme, and retreat back to the ocean and promote (we would get 4XP from a victory, so C1 and 50% odds on future battles). That would also elminate the threat of Kaz boating PM, forcing them to build another 2 triremes if they lost (1 if they really wanted to risk the invasion), so a 100 cost on top of invasion forces versus 50 for us that was effectively useless if we didn't attack.

So we attacked and won (And it was AT that decided to go for it). Kaz bitched and moaned (with good reason!)

Actually, from that post on it is basically all of the statistical good stuff from that war. All the shit I dealt with was from t90 to t109 and hte planting of Zero...ah, memories.

[T-hawk]

what the Sirian Doctrine is? I can't ask hte lurkers because that would be spoiler info...

How's that spoiler? It's just a metagame term, like "CS slingshot" or "GP farm". Anyway, Sirian Doctrine is the idea of conquering cities directly from boats without ever exposing your units to a counterattack on land. If you have naval superiority, you can't get counterattacked. It did work better before siege units were changed to be unable to attack from ships. Airships and fighters can help but aren't strictly necessary.

[Krill]

Well, what would people think if I went out giving away tactical advice to particular players in RBPB1? I could quite easily go and explain to Broker how to have a great shot at winning, where to attack, with what sort of units, and what to have in reserve. That would involve me as a lurker using my game knowledge and experience for another players benefit. Perhaps it isn't a spoiler in an SP term, but I tend to feel that lurkers shouldn't play the game for a player.

As it is...there looks to be several weaknesses in that tactic, especially the obvious one where if you can't hit an enemy transport group because it is faster than you, it doesn't matter how many ships you have. So you have to have total naval superiority over every single neighbour, which doesn't happen much in these sort of games, to be able to safely invade a neighbour...and then you need to expand the picket line even further.

It is about right for a basic idea, but it seriously lacks the finesse necessary to work in an MP game, or the strategy behind it to make it work. "Strategy without tactics is hte slow road to victory, but tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat", is pretty much dead on here.

[Krill]

Chat with Dreylin. Seems to be getting tetchier everytime I speak to him. Probably wants to either work with me on a short term basis, or as needs arise (which is effectively the same thing).

Well, looks like I will have to return to how I handled Lins in RBPB1. Aggressively. Going to consider researching CoL myself, which is far from ideal, but I need to know what I have to do, so I can make a convincing case that I don't need to trade it from Dreylin. Obviously this would severely hamper my ability to build the GL, but not like I'm publicly admitting that is one of my aims.

(12:19:08 PM) Krill: Yo mate, how's the head?
(12:19:36 PM) Dreylin: I've decided to institute a 10min delay for each time you nag me to play the turn
(12:19:46 PM) Dreylin: (because it's annoying)
(12:19:55 PM) Krill: Actually this is different
(12:19:56 PM) Dreylin: so I was about to upload the finished turn
(12:20:02 PM) Krill: I'm nagging because I want to know about CoL
(12:20:05 PM) Dreylin: but now I'm going to wait 10mins
(12:20:14 PM) Krill: subtle difference
(12:23:43 PM) Krill: So, I take it you don't want to trade CoL to me?
(12:23:50 PM) Dreylin: sorry what?
(12:24:01 PM) Krill: Dude, I kinda want to work out some sort of trade for CoL
(12:24:19 PM) Krill: so far I've heard nothing from you
(12:24:38 PM) Dreylin: nothing specific, sure
(12:25:02 PM) Dreylin: you want a "yes I'd like to trade CoL to you"; then you got it
(12:25:25 PM) Dreylin: you want a beaker-for-beaker nailed down in blood deal; not happening until nearer the time
(12:25:54 PM) Krill: I'd like to work on the specifics with you, so we can come to some sort of agreement. Don;t want to meet you with CoL, and then we both find out neither of us is happy with the deal
(12:26:00 PM) Krill: ok
(12:26:18 PM) Dreylin: You currently have multiple techs available
(12:26:29 PM) Dreylin: in 10t I may really really need IW
(12:26:39 PM) Dreylin: but if I've hammered out a deal for MC
(12:26:54 PM) Dreylin: then I'm going to be buggered
(12:27:02 PM) Dreylin: (for example)
(12:27:08 PM) Krill: I'm happy to work out deals where I front tech
(12:27:11 PM) Dreylin: or, I may really need Triremes
(12:27:26 PM) Dreylin: well that's hardly possible when we haven't met yet
(12:27:45 PM) Krill: but if you don;t want to work out the relationship now, then there is always the chance that someone else asks me to not trade with you.
(12:28:09 PM) Dreylin: Well that'd be up to you then wouldn't it
(12:28:24 PM) Krill: But as we both know, we're neighbours
(12:28:36 PM) Krill: and I don;t think either of us really wants to return to RBPB1
(12:28:48 PM) Dreylin: YIf you can't accept a firm commitment that I will trade CoL to you for an "as yet unagreed" price
(12:29:03 PM) Dreylin: then feel free not to trade with me
(12:29:28 PM) Krill: ok then
(12:29:52 PM) Dreylin: to which?
(12:30:06 PM) Krill: guess we'll find out when we come to try and hammer out a deal.

[Krill]

(4:52:18 PM) Darrell: save uploaded
(4:52:38 PM) Krill: thanks mate
(4:53:08 PM) Darrell: np
(4:53:14 PM) Darrell: 5 galleys, two more finishing in two turns
(4:53:18 PM) Darrell: got a free spread too :D
(4:53:23 PM) Krill: just saw
(4:53:24 PM) Krill: jammy
(4:53:31 PM) Krill: although I got one to my capital
(4:53:35 PM) Krill: so can't complain
(4:53:39 PM) Darrell: with my intercont trade routes,every city is making more in routes than it costs in maintenance
(4:54:03 PM) Krill: you with 5 cities, me with 3...
(4:54:03 PM) Darrell: think 8 galleys is enough, will wait 8 turns for MC and tiremes
(4:54:09 PM) Krill: *2
(4:54:12 PM) Krill: 3rd shortly
(4:54:36 PM) Darrell: Atltant costs 3.65 gold, makes 6 in routes plus one from the city tile
(4:54:49 PM) Darrell: I need to get out 4 more cities fast
(4:54:54 PM) Darrell: after my naval push and a few more workers
(4:55:14 PM) Darrell: If I help you kill your wester neighbor, can I get some land over there?
(4:55:25 PM) Darrell: brb
(4:56:39 PM) Darrell: I'd like a 2-3 city cluster I can use to stage troops from two directions bascially
(4:57:14 PM) Krill: Typical American.
(4:57:49 PM) Darrell:
(4:57:56 PM) Darrell: think about it, I'd do thye same for you on my east
(4:58:07 PM) Darrell: might not be needed depending on how we coordinate, but htink about it
(5:03:24 PM) Krill: and onwards we go...
(5:03:38 PM) Krill: sorry for that, just had to decide what to do in my second city
(5:04:13 PM) Krill: ok
(5:04:28 PM) Krill: basically as i see it, you want to do some sort of territory swap?
(5:05:22 PM) Darrell: yeah
(5:05:36 PM) Darrell: kind of a base of operations
(5:05:46 PM) Darrell: I guess the downside is it will be harder to defend
(5:05:50 PM) Darrell: maybe its a stupid idea
(5:05:54 PM) Darrell: something to think about tho
(5:06:05 PM) Darrell: of course, if we are doing a joint operation it becomes less important
(5:07:25 PM) Krill: Sufficed to say, if you want to war with Dreylin, 2 things come to mind: any treaties I would have with Dreylin such as NAPs (and I don;t have any, and way he is going, probably never will) and what would happen to the land afterwards
(5:07:41 PM) Krill: I take it that because of how your WB moved, there isn;t a path to Dreylin up there?

[Krill]

T-hawk...I'd call you and evil evil man here, but it was the map generator. I can't place a city for all 3 foods on the island, nor can I place a city for both fish and the clam. Now I need to go and redo the dotmap for that entire area. I have a settler on the plains forest next to the copper, so I need to decide this fast...

[T-hawk]

I had to look at that about five times before I figured out what three-food island you were talking about. Neither screenshot shows all three seafood. I'm guessing you got the second map from somebody else.

Yes, all map script, not me. Anyway, I see a pretty natural puzzle fit there (not spoiler, just looking at your shots, I don't even know what that part of the map looks like.) SSW (21) from the clam to claim both that and the west fish, 1S of the other fish to claim it and one of the floodplains, and 2N of the copper to claim that whole area.

[novice]

I had to look at that about five times before I figured out what three-food island you were talking about. Neither screenshot shows all three seafood. I'm guessing you got the second map from somebody else.

Yes, all map script, not me. Anyway, I see a pretty natural puzzle fit there (not spoiler, just looking at your shots, I don't even know what that part of the map looks like.) SSW (21) from the clam to claim both that and the west fish, 1S of the other fish to claim it and one of the floodplains, and 2N of the copper to claim that whole area.

Not spoiler, but it is unsolicited advice. Not that Krill isn't able to see these puzzle fits anyway.

Do you want input on the dotmap, Krill? If so, *raises hand*.

[Krill]

It's probably best if you comment on the dot maps in the lurker thread, and not in here; you probably know where all of the hidden strat resources are, which would be a bonus

However, I had noticed T-hawks suggested fit earlier, here is is in pictorial form:



Blue are already mandatory, orr settled locations.

Black missess 4 coastal tiles and clams, red missess 7 coastal tiles and no food. More importantly though red only has 6 ocean tiles, black has 11 ocean, which are complete junk. Red has 2 island cities that are really slavable and a solid production city, but Black has 2 good production cities and 2 good slaving cities, and then can make more use of drafting and per city boni later on in the game. The western black dot would be a great Moia/HE city, if I had the health to get it up to size 18 (32 base hpt, 88 hpt ships, so 2 destroyers every 3 turns, enough to overcome Darrells' slavery plan). But I have other cities that can do that, worse cities, so that isn't a good enough reason for that dot map.

Biggest issue though is ocean travel, both western red dot and western black dot need to reach 50 culture to expand over ocean tiles, so a ship can explore to the coast that is SW of the island. But what about north of the island?

End of the day I jut went with the red dot plan. Bluebell Bay (third city) should be strong enough to build the two island cities and guards by itself, but the plains hill city would be a little bit slower and have to get another settler out, so would be a worse city for most of hte game.