[Spoiler] PB42: Rusten and mackoti play Krill playing Bismarck of Portugal

[Krill]

HE and NE are not really late game though, and having 1 extra of those early on is a big deal, IMO.

What's the point of PHI now, with 2 NE available for IND? Yes, you get the super early academy, but that's not enough to justify it.

Interesting point about HE though: assuming it is already unlocked via XP, I think in most cases it will be a question between 60 hammer forges via MC, that could give an unknown amount of happy plus 25% production for everything, and Aesthetics+Lit that gives wonder builds and the HE/NE pair that aren't going anywhere. In what circumstances would it make more sense to prioritise getting HE and NE down, than getting forges in most cities? I'm not sure, because building four 200 hammer national wonders is going to take most of a players production out of play for a while, and even then, to use NE effectively, you are going to not work hammer tiles. So it's almost like the two HE will cover the two NE (and then some, because the cities that build HE should be better hammer producers than the NE cities), so total hammer output will not massively rise. The real gain would be to grab the extra great people quicker, to push onto the next level of units, but the Medieval era units aren't really bulbable. But that leaves open a much larger window than just cramming down the forges everywhere, which allows vertical growth, which are more easily staggered between cities and other priorities and can contribute to buildings, units and worker, settler expansion.

I don't actually know how this is going to work out. I see an awful lot of ways for things to go wrong for IND. I'm not even sure how to value it versus other late game stuff like ORG (you get a second FP, but do you have anywhere high cost to build it? If so, if you've got a good land amount, are you winning? Does it become a win more trait?), or against FIN (Sure, get a ton more commerce from otherwise junk coastal tiles, but IND has teh extra single 100% gold and beaker output in a second commerce city. But there is only one Bureau capital and Bureau is high cost.)

[Rusten]

You're not forced to build all 4 wonders though. If you want to go to war then 2x HE is better than putting forges everywhere. Ignore the NE until later if you need settlers/workers.
2xHE is +200% to military units for 400 hammers base hammers before IND/marble reduction. 6 IND forges is 360 hammers for +150%.
Now add in the fact that you can choose 2 cities with the best production potential. Say 2 cities with a lot of forests, and it becomes even more powerful to stack the modifiers in 2 cities as opposed to multiple. This means less hammers spent on barracks too.

I think IND has so many options and tools for every situation now where it's almost never a "dead trait" while also having new-found potential to come up huge.

[Krill]

None of the copies have any multipliers except the large IND production bonus, but ignoring that, it's fair to consider the normal base cost as the true cost of the copy national wonder: So the HE copy is 200 base hammers no matter what, OR, Forges, Marble is removed as a production modifier. I've also removed the IND production bonus from all wonders. So the base HE is only affected by marble.

With that in mind, it's 330-ish/400 hammers and +200% modifiers on units v. 360 hammers and +150% on everything. Best case scenario, and both HE hit 25 base hpt for a unit per turn, what is that? 50hpt adjusted? So the forge example needs to make something like 200 hammers between 6 cities to come close to the best case scenario for the HE. Everyone knows that isn't happening. Unless slavery is still being used, in which case forges are going to be contributing about 5-6 hpt extra. But then everything starts getting to complicated for a back of the envelope calculation.

I agree that it does not look like a dead trait at all. I'll be interested in seeing if someone can get two HE up and running in 20+hpt cities by T110 here.

[Mardoc]

Your start:
Krill

[Krill]

Players have that be careful after they see starts for the first time so they don't come across as whiny little bitches, so...

Thanis for the map Mardoc

[Krill]

OK, thoughts: That is one brown capital. Mardoc, question (and I don't think this is something you have to answer now): is that desert incense hand placed? My understanding of the map generator is that desert in the capital is turned to plains.

This is not a capital for cottaging, maximum of 10 cottageable tile including grassland hill. At size 7 it can make 21 hpt, size 8 it can make 24hpt so it's a viable HE location. CHM likes it, but I'm loathe to pick CHM just for the capital. These map settings do not make for green games, you cottage what you can and run lots of hybrid cities. So lots of cheap buildings can be good.

Bismark, that's who I want. EXP gives a 2 turn headstart on the worker, and this start only needs Hunting (or Mining?) to work. No point delaying hooking up new food resources to work hills. IMP probably makes back the turn lead on the first worker, but can't get out a second worker before the settler. Maybe IMP/Hunting/Mining would be the fastest start to the completed settler but the first worker shouldn't chop until all pastures are completed, and that takes until T25 to do. Mining>BW completes in those turns anyway. EXP gets workers eot9 and eot22, and is size 3 eot20 That leaves the second trait to suit whatever player whims exist.

Civs are more difficult. The only Hunting or Mining Civs are as follows:

• The fast but boring civs
  
• Russia, Hunting/Mining
  
• Germany, Hunting/Mining
  
• Khmer, Hunting/Mining
  
• Ethiopia, Hunting/Mining
  
  The revolt to slavery whilst building first settler but after first worker civs - not really any slower than above civs WRT settler.
  
• Zulu, Agriculture/Hunting
  
• Persia, Agriculture/Hunting
  
• Vikings, Fishing/Hunting
  
• Greece, Fishing/Hunting
  
• Mongolia, Wheel/Hunting
  
• HRE, Myst/Hunting - can't chase religion
  
• Celts, Myst/Hunting - can't chase religion
  
  
  The more interesting, but slightly slower civs
  
• Rome, Fishing/Mining
  
• Portugal, Fishing/Mining
  
• England, Fishing/Mining
  
• Carthage, Fishing/Mining
  
• Maya, Myst/Mining
  
• Aztecs, Myst/Hunting
  
• Mali, Wheel/Mining
  
• Korea, Agri/Mining
  
• China, Agri/Mining
  

When you get right down to it, civs just aren't that interesting.

[Krill]

Issues with double worker before settler: Will only have one tech researched if going BW second, can just about get BW done with a 60 base cost tech (ie Hunting) to not lose worker turns chopping but can't fit the revolt in efficiently unless starting with Hunting (so researching straight Mining>BW). But if the second worker is not chopping, all it can do is mine hills. But I can still finish a settler eot30 with workers eot9 and eot22 and warriors eot20 and eot26, growth eot17, eot20, eot26, using 2 forests. That leaves the capital primed to throw out another warrior eot33 whilst growing to size 5 eot33 as well, and I can have two river mines completed t31 and t34. I figure Wheel is due eot31 as well, with a Mining start, probably eot29 or eot30 with Hunting start. So T34, producing 18 food hammers per turn with the pig, or 15 with the flood plain. Delay this a turn if revolting to slavery whilst the settler moves.

So I know that EXP/[Hunting or Mining] is viable. None Exp would be two turns slower to the first worker and then be a further turn slower to the second worker, which realistically means that it would be possible to slave the 4th pop into the settler to speed it up which EXP can do to save a turn as well, just feels wrong. So none EXP basically comes out with double workers and a T32-ish settler, because the forests are staggered differently, but revolt to slavery before the settler is finished to whip it...eh, not slow, but what do you replace EXP with?

[naufragar]

...eh, not slow, but what do you replace EXP with?

Nothing! For all that I've bashed it, I'd love to see Exp played out by someone who knows what he's doing.

[Krill]

EXP is often considered weak on an opening because we use two hammer plants. If everyone settled for a 1 hammer plant, then EXP gives a 3 turn advantage. plains hill plants drop that to 2 turns, and if players get a 4 yield tile to work on T0, 1 turn. We can quantify that weakness, but the trait is more than that. There is a potential for a 4 happy cap building on a critical Classical era tech, at 75 hammers. There is a combined 125 hammer saving on the Aqueduct and Grocer, buildings that allow Factories to not starve cities down 4 pop; ORG saves 120 hammers on the Factory itself, but EXP can make the savings earlier plus the free health allows you to essentially ignore that problem, and it's a real problem later on.

Is it the best trait in the game? I'd argue that it is a mellow trait that doesn't really break anything, whereas AGG and CHM allow easier commandos, or give you a tactical advantage in warfare. FIN is FIN, on a low quality map you often have nothing to work except cottages. SPI I've already mentioned. But EXP will cover the weakness in other traits better than anything else, and it is that which makes it worthwhile.

Look, in a lot of games, people look at something that is considered special or unique to a civ, or a faction, or a team, and think they need to use that item as much as possible. Civ isn't like that, you need to use the savings on that special item to bolster something that you are lacking. People think that Boudicca is the ultmate warmonger. She isn't. If you pick Boudicca, you actually have to play "Civ City" and spend all of the time and effort managing and growing the economy. And then, if you reach the late game and you have a good enough economy, you win.

EXP balances out those weakness in a leader/civ combo. Shaka doesn't need to focus on the economy so much, because he spends less on workers so he can spend those hammers on military. Old Bismark could focus on getting that early wonder without getting run over 30 turns later by HA. Pacal can get his cottages down faster and more easily, and get them grown sooner. It lets Izzy build an empire so there is more to micromanage, more to wring out of it via civic abuses. EXP covers the weaknesses and lets the other trait be used more, and that is why it is a good trait.

[Krill]

Anyway, I ran another sim with double worker before settler as PRO (which doubles as None-EXP, None-Imp). eot33 Settler with double chop, so three turns behind but worker turns aren't as critical.

I've been running the sims using Mining/Fishing, because there is the opportunity to take one of Carthage, Rome, Portugal or England. Right now I'm leaning towards Portugal if it's open, but EXP Cothons or EXP Forums have their place if someone else takes it, or England to pick something blank to see how IND works out is reasonable.

If someone picks Bismark, I'm not sure what I'll go with.