RB PBEM 2 - de Krill of Fronce

[Krill]

Chat with Darrell. Not sure what to do really. 25K culture doesn't give me enough time to take out 3 civs, unless I play a blinder, or SL+Ruff attack Darrell and slow him down that way.

me: Darrell, you around?
Darrell: yeah
me: You know what you are teching next?
Darrell: Looks like Optics
14:40 me: Specifically, is it Optics?
ah, ok
Darrell: yeah
why?
me: Trying to figure out what to tech next
Darrell: Education?
me: paper is like 8 turns away
according to Dreylin
Darrell: dreylin is slooooow
14:41 I could have done it in 5 I think
Philo or Education makes the most sense IMO
me: Well, I'm kinda happy he is slow
Darrell: yeah
me: Do you know how long SL has left on Fued?
Also, don;t really want to tech Philo without Drama...
14:42 Darrell: Dreylin teched Drama I thought?
me: And not sure what SL is going to do with his next GE/GS
Darrell: I think I have it even
me: yeah, but I've not traded for it
Darrell: I could do philo and you do optics
but I owe dreylin optcis for paper
you could offer him philo for paper I guess
so we dont waste the drama discount
me: I've got a machinery+HBR for Theo and paper deal in place
Darrell: but then he's a GS away from liberalism
HBR
cataphracts
14:43 me: Yup
I've basically teched his UU for hi,
Darrell: he needs astro to hit us tho
me: not necessarilly
Darrell: long ass walk the other way
me: there are places he can reach me with galleys and a well placed city
Darrell: well shit
me: Um
Darrell: does he know that?
me: I have got that in hand though
I planted a city specifically to blockade coastal tiles in my land
14:44 So I'm safe
however
Darrell: cause it requires culture to reach?
me: I don;t want Astro released asap
yeah
Darrell: no, astro is going to protect us from cataphracts
me: And the moment Optics get traded, Caravels can be built and that could lead to some annoying tile blockades
14:45 Darrell: what do privateers require?
me: Chem
Darrell: hmm
me: which needs engineering
Darrell: engineering and gunpowder, right?
me: yeah
Darrell: gunpowder gives musketeers
me: and they are likely teching towards Guilds, with SL doing fued
yeah, they get eaten alive though
Darrell: trie
true
14:46 by cataphracts, everything gets eaten alive
in this era
you got WE at least
me: Well, getting the city out for that right now
Darrell: a couple of catapults and WEs can clean up
me: will be able to gift you the second resource once that gets hooked
well, ideally I kill him at see
*Sea
Darrell: yeah, that really is quite ideal
14:47 me: Well, for me, the ideal scenario is this:
14:48 I tech optics at 0% slider, timing the tech to finish when Dreylin gets paper
you go 0% Engineering/Philo, saving gold to finish either
14:49 once paper is in, I finish Optics and go full bore through Education
You can either tech Philo if SL bulbs it
with the 1.4 modifier and the extra bomnus from him knowing it
Philo should be done by the time Edu is finished easily
Darrell: the only wrinkle is I owe Dreyling Optics for Paper
But yeah that's a pretty nice scenario
14:50 I can probably get Engineering and Philo in about the time you get Education
why don't I go optics and Philo and you go Education?
me: Do you have a no brokering agreement on Optics?
Because I'm making 30 bpt at zero science and have nothing to place it into
Darrell: Dreylin and I have a no brokering agreement on all our tech trades
so I cant trade paper around and he cant trade optics around
me: I don;t mind gifting Optics to Dreylin if I research it
14:51 Darrell: hrm
that's a problem
me: I could arguably tech Engineering at zero science and save gold
if you forwarded construction
but
it would be favourable in that instance if I didn;t finish machinery asap
14:52 so construction is kept more expensive for yaz
and that delays Optics
Darrell: okay
so lets do this
you put 'em in optics
I'll talke to dreylin and see if engineering is okay
instead
for paper
hmm
me: 1001 beakers for eng
14:53 600 for paper
Darrell: engineering costs a lot more
yeah
me: and he has a 1.4 modifier
Darrell: yeah
how many turns do we ahve to figure this out?
me: lasst turn, Dreylin said 8-10 turns for paper
14:54 I can finish Machiner yin 2
Darrell: jesus
that's just sad
me: with about 0 gold left
so I can save about 300 gold
in 6 turns
just about
Darrell: how long left on machinery if you go 0% beakers?
me: 9 more turns
Darrell: 6
well...let's do that then
gives you plenty of gold to burn edu, right?
me: also, have a GS at about 70% odds due in 6 turns
14:55 so hopefully get an academy there
Darrell: yeah I like the idea of full gold even more then
gets the multiplier for the academy
so time it to complete when paper comes in,
I'll go Philo and Engineering (saving gold as well)
while you go Education
we'll exchange those techs
14:56 then someone goes lib while the other guys gunpowder?
me: works for me
question is SL IMO
how long til fued
if that is about 5 turns...
and fued is 700 beakers
only just got monarchy
14:57 they won't be in a position to really break open the game and launch themselves at Lib unless one funds the other
Darrell: feudalism is needed for Guilds, which is needed for Gunpowder?
me: they do that, they both lack astro
yeah
Darrell: I thought that was an OR, not an AND
me: well
or
Guilds or edu
Darrell: right
sinc eits an OR, we don't technically need Feud/Guilds
unless you were worried about cataphracts pre-astro
14:58 me: no, not really worried. I do have a deal in place (sorted yesterday) for fued for machinery
phone
Darrell: Okay...I should try and get one lined up. Its possible I already do?
okay
later
14:59 me: back
damned cold callers
15:00 yeah, I think we want fued>guilds>banking, with 2 shrines
but after lib
Darrell: well lets hope we can get guilds and banking for trades
just got to not trade important things
which might make it tough
me: no philo trade, no edu trade
15:01 Darrell: yeah, those are the two
I think SL might go for philo
me: optics?
I expect him to bulb it tbh
Darrell: thats what I use to get paper
me: *SL, bulbing philo
Darrell: yeah if they bulb edu and philo then we'll have to take chem and slow tech steel
15:02 me: yeah
can deal with that
Darrell: funny
chem is 1800
astro is 2000
me: Astro is 2003
Darrell: yeah
me: point though
15:03 tech bonus...
Darrell: brb
me: cy
11 minutes
15:14 Darrell: okay back
15:15 me: So, you are ok with me trading Optics to Dreylin for you?
Darrell: yeah
But I thought the plan was for you to slow down on machinery and then burn through education?
let me look at the options and just send an e-mail out
me: ah, that is what you meant
15:16 I'm much happier with that
Darrell: so I can have beaker totals, expected discounts, etc.
yeah
It hink its better
esp if I can get ivory from you and dont need maceman for yaz
err...what are the odds I can get your first ivory, speaking of which?
if you need it, forget I asked
but if you don't...
me: probably won't
15:17 Darrell: okay, play it by ear I gues
me: let me crank the numbers on when you can get it
Darrell: Ive got decaying hammers I suspect
plus yaz is building units like crazy
okay, so final thing
me: t92
Darrell: Im really quite happy to collaborate on this, I think its going to put us way out in front
me: to trade it from me
Darrell: okay
hopefully yaz is dead by then
so no rush
15:18 the rub I have is this is a) going to put you pretty much in charge of the game, and b) there isn't much I can do about it long term due to other deals I was forced to make during the yaz incident
so I am basically at a game crossroads. I prefer to work with you on this, but I need security
are you willing to sign a game long NAP?
15:19 if you have concerns and want to put provisions that allow breakage, I'm happy to consider that
but Im basically going to be stuck at 11 cities, maybe another 3 from dreylin, and you are going to be romping
15:22 me: You've put me in quite a spot here.
If I agree to what you propose
Darrell: heh
me: along with a no RoP for attackers
then I have to place my self at about 90% chance to win the game
15:23 so I'd be stupid to turn down the offer
Darrell: that feels about right
5 minutes
15:28 me: Just need to check now: are you going to declare war on SL or Ruff this game?
Darrell: No
15:29 me: So, you have to be heading for the elusive SS or common culture win
Darrell: Assuming they don't declare on me first of course, then I reserve the right
My plan will be to go for culture if you sign this deal
15:30 me: You and Sl, culture, Dreylin, AP, myself, domination
and Ruff Diplo I suppose
Darrell: And, just to be complete, my plan if you don't sign the deal is to continue to cooperate with you, but probably not on a Steel slingshot .
yeah, pretty much
me: what is it for a culture victory?
25k?
Darrell: lets just take dreylin and ruff out of the equation to simplify things, because they aren't winning
15:31 I think it is 50K
the last time I went for it was 75K
but that might have been epic
if epic is 75K, then normal would be 50K
and quick would be 33.5K
15:34 me: Quick is 25k
according to CFC
Darrell: quick is half of normal?
me: but that just seems wrong
Darrell: that does not seem right
yeah
do you have access to the game?
me: tyeah
checking now
15:35 Christ
it is 25K
Darrell: Interesting...very interesting
that's broken really
me: and a GA gives 2680 culture
yeah
15:38 Darrell: Im trying to guestimate how long it would take me, and I'm not really all that sure
15:39 I still doubt I could beat you to domination, but I could definnitely beat you to space if you stopped at dreylin
me: The problem is that I'm not actually sure I could beat you to Dom, if you went culture
Darrell: im assuming incompetence from SL
somewhat at least
15:40 it would be a legendary battle, hopefully :-P
emphasis on legendary
well, take your time to think about it
me: Well, I do need to go and do a bit of shopping
so should realy go and do that now
15:41 so, cya
Darrell: okay, see you

[Krill]

After thinking about it (and shopping for a barbecue), this was my reply:

(5:53:27 PM) de krill of Fronce: OK, I can go with the game long NAP, breaking the one taboo I've held the longest, provided that if the others haven't figured out we have an NAP by the time Lib falls, we tell them publicly.
(5:53:45 PM) de krill of Fronce: And we both agree to split Sids.
(5:54:31 PM) de krill of Fronce: And we have a no RoP clause for the others, so we can't be attacked from both directions

Yes, I'm a danger to Dreylin and SL if I want to kill them, but now they have to fear Darrell as well, so they aren't going to focus on me alone. This should hopefully make it easier for me and harder for Darrell to reach the victory conditions that we've set each other.

And I might try to sneak a culture win, with my massive amount of seafood, which Darrell lacks. however, he has some cottage-able land, and while I do, I have to cannibalise some cities to do that.

[Krill]

So, this is what me and Darrell have worked out:

I tech machinery slowly, using specialists and saving gold. I finish the tech once Dreylin can finish paper, and swap immediately onto Education, and slow tech that, messing with my slider every turn. Meanwhile, Darrell techs Optics (owes it to Dreylin for Paper, and is our out if things go bad) and then Engineering. After this he techs Philo (most likely after SL bulbs it for an extra beaker bonus).

After I finish Education, I go onto Gunpowder, and me and Darrell time our techs to complete at the same time, and we do the mass swap of techs. I then tech lib, and Darrell does Chemistry, and I take Steel. Estimated time to tech is about 20 turns if we are fast, from when I start Edu.

Now, there are many things that can go wrong with this, prime among them Dreylin, Ruff and SL being a funder/techer trio, bulbing Philo and teching straight to Lib. What is our answer to that? A very simple one: They can't out tech us, right now I can make 214 base beakers at 100% building research, and I'm growing pretty damned fast, and I have another GP in 6 more turns, about 70% odds on a GS. When it comes to techer/funders and a real tech race, the winner is the player with highest GNP+MFG, if their costs can be covered, and in this game, that's me. And if they go that route, we get Astro and go choke them into the ground.

So, it is a catch 22 for the others. To stop us Libbing Steel, they have to open themselves up for a galeeon choke. The beaker delta between the two techs is only 334 beakers, but ideally we get Steel first to get dry docks up and running sooner, while we are immediately teching Astro. When drydocks are finish, revolt to PS/Vassalage/Theo and start flooding the sea with Frigates while building a stack, then swap over to galleons, and go start island hopping. If we have to get Astro first though, I get out a half dozen galleons and go piss Dreylin off.

(10:23:44 PM) Darrell: you there?
(10:23:48 PM) de krill of Fronce: yeah
(10:23:57 PM) Darrell: okay, here is the plan I came up with
(10:24:08 PM) Darrell: Chemistry (1206)
Engineering (670), Gunpowder (1206 or 1005)
Liberalism (938)
Philosophy (447), Education (1206)
(10:24:13 PM) Darrell: Total beakers = 6678
(10:24:19 PM) Darrell: Darrell = Philosophy, Gunpowder, Chemistry (2859)
(10:24:25 PM) Darrell: Krill = Education, Engineering, Liberalsim (2814)
(10:24:30 PM) Darrell: All techs (including free tech from Liberalism) to be shared.
(10:24:48 PM) Darrell: I need to figure out how close I am to you at break even to make sure I can keep up.
(10:25:02 PM) de krill of Fronce: I wouldn't worry about that.
(10:25:09 PM) Darrell: I might need to borrow cash if we want to optimize it so that Lib and Chem complete the same turn
(10:25:17 PM) de krill of Fronce: that's fine
(10:25:52 PM) Darrell: highlights are I can delay construction to you until after Yaz is dead, I get the drama discount for philo, and the beakers are about break even
(10:26:07 PM) Darrell: now we need to figure out how long it is going to take to get 28xx beakers, factoring in growing economic power
(10:26:19 PM) Darrell: <28 turns, >20 turns is my guess
(10:26:28 PM) Darrell: I dont think they can beat us without using bulbs
(10:26:32 PM) de krill of Fronce: OK, problems as I see it
(10:26:42 PM) de krill of Fronce: I need to finish Education before you start with gunpowder
(10:26:57 PM) Darrell: hmm
(10:27:21 PM) Darrell: we could swap engineering/chemistry and gunpowder/liberalism
(10:27:26 PM) Darrell: that puts more of a beaker burden on you
(10:28:06 PM) Darrell: ah
(10:28:15 PM) de krill of Fronce: I owe you for construction
(10:28:21 PM) Darrell: you'll need engineering to start gunpowder
(10:28:25 PM) de krill of Fronce: nope
(10:28:31 PM) Darrell: oh
(10:28:31 PM) de krill of Fronce: need engineering for chem
(10:28:32 PM) Darrell: right
(10:28:34 PM) Darrell: right
(10:28:42 PM) Darrell: hmm
(10:29:00 PM) Darrell: I can do philo engineering chem
(10:29:10 PM) Darrell: you can do education gunpowder lib
(10:29:33 PM) Darrell: beaker totals are 2323 for me
(10:29:34 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'm going to have to be fast then
(10:29:40 PM) Darrell: and whatever the rest is for you
(10:29:47 PM) Darrell: well I can gold fund you to make up the beaker delta
(10:30:07 PM) de krill of Fronce: It might be necesarry to get to chem asap
(10:30:08 PM) Darrell: the rest is 3350
(10:30:32 PM) de krill of Fronce: you got an eta for the death of yaz, or atleast, the opening up of trade routes?
(10:30:54 PM) Darrell: even with 235 for construction, the delta is 792, so I can get you 792 gold to let you go 100%
(10:31:00 PM) de krill of Fronce: that should give you something like an extra 15ish commerce
(10:31:01 PM) Darrell: well, I can't promise I can give you that but I can try
(10:31:11 PM) Darrell: ruff is slowing me down big time
(10:31:19 PM) Darrell: we had a plan and I have my troops ready but he has jack shit
(10:31:30 PM) Darrell: so now I am having to do aonther round to supplement him
(10:31:36 PM) Darrell: but my guess is 10-12 turns
(10:31:57 PM) Darrell: my GNP will, as you say, jack up at that point
(10:32:01 PM) Darrell: and I'll be able to rip chemistry
(10:32:17 PM) Darrell: or 100% fund you
(10:32:24 PM) de krill of Fronce: well
(10:32:28 PM) de krill of Fronce: wouldn;t say jack up
(10:32:32 PM) de krill of Fronce: but I know what you mean
(10:32:48 PM) Darrell: most of my 2 gpt/turn trade routes will go to 6-7 (harbors, intercont, foreign)
(10:32:55 PM) Darrell: that's about half my routes right now
(10:33:01 PM) Darrell: which si about 60% of my income
(10:33:13 PM) Darrell: so let's say 35 commerce doubles
(10:33:18 PM) de krill of Fronce: ah, so you are still buildiing harbours? that helps
(10:33:21 PM) Darrell: so I'd got up by about 30% total
(10:33:28 PM) Darrell: upwards of 40%
(10:34:03 PM) Darrell: no, not building harbors but once I have the trooops to kill yaz, I'll whip a round in to take advantage of the trade routes
(10:34:09 PM) Darrell: building one harbor right now
(10:34:10 PM) Darrell: that's it
(10:34:26 PM) Darrell: I think we can do this in 20-22 turns if we really coordinate
(10:34:42 PM) Darrell: and frankly I would like to do it just to say we did it
(10:35:36 PM) Darrell: were not even in the medieval yet and we're talking about getting to the industrial in 20 turns
(10:35:40 PM) Darrell: essentially on our own
(10:35:49 PM) Darrell: or is steel one before industrial, cant remember
(10:36:04 PM) de krill of Fronce: Stell is Ind
(10:36:09 PM) Darrell: how cool would that be
(10:36:11 PM) de krill of Fronce: Look at SANCTA
(10:36:21 PM) Darrell: classical to industrial in 20 turns
(10:36:21 PM) de krill of Fronce: 50 bpt t99
(10:36:25 PM) de krill of Fronce: finish Lib t128
(10:36:38 PM) Darrell: academy will help
(10:36:44 PM) de krill of Fronce: you can do alot when you put your mind to it
(10:36:46 PM) Darrell: growing will help
(10:36:51 PM) Darrell: yes, and you have competent partners
(10:37:04 PM) Darrell: still angry over the yaz war's lack of progress
(10:37:41 PM) Darrell: tbf it isn't ruff or SL's fault.
(10:37:53 PM) Darrell: ruff was down to one city essentially and SL isn't that vested
(10:38:07 PM) Darrell: competence isn
(10:38:30 PM) Darrell: competence isn't due to lack of skill on their part, its due to lack of cities
(10:38:36 PM) Darrell: still don't know why SL only has 4-5
(10:39:04 PM) de krill of Fronce: Yeah
(10:39:07 PM) de krill of Fronce: OK
(10:39:13 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'll try to explain it
(10:39:23 PM) de krill of Fronce: You know how Kaz played?
(10:39:29 PM) Darrell: Yaz?
(10:39:32 PM) de krill of Fronce: They focussed on early tech, and getting hte academy
(10:39:37 PM) de krill of Fronce: nah, MTDG, Kaz
(10:39:52 PM) de krill of Fronce: alot of Phi civs make the mistake
(10:39:54 PM) Darrell: hmm...no I didn't lurk that game
(10:40:00 PM) de krill of Fronce: of going for the early academy because it is cheap
(10:40:06 PM) de krill of Fronce: they got the GS about turn 70
(10:40:25 PM) de krill of Fronce: now, to really make use of an academy, you have to keep the slider high
(10:40:32 PM) de krill of Fronce: and you can't do that when expanding
(10:40:49 PM) Darrell: Yeah in general...although Spulla did a decent job of it.
(10:41:01 PM) Darrell: think of the hammers lost building the library and working the scientists a swell
(10:41:08 PM) Darrell: a swell = as well
(10:41:11 PM) de krill of Fronce: Thing is, I disagree there, for hte reasons you mentioned
(10:41:30 PM) de krill of Fronce: and what they lost, snowbals
(10:41:39 PM) de krill of Fronce: it is different in an NTT game
(10:41:44 PM) de krill of Fronce: where you can't trade
(10:42:05 PM) Darrell: yup...very true. general rule is probably don't build the academy until you are growing vertically
(10:42:25 PM) Darrell: okay, well anyway it looks like we have a plan?
(10:42:29 PM) de krill of Fronce: yup
(10:42:50 PM) de krill of Fronce: slo tech machinery, then race through edu
(10:42:55 PM) de krill of Fronce: only point
(10:43:06 PM) de krill of Fronce: I expect SL to tech Astro
(10:43:13 PM) de krill of Fronce: he says fued is due in 4
(10:43:22 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'm not going to finish machinery until Dreylin is done to slow him down
(10:43:32 PM) Darrell: I go philo -> engineering -> chemistry
(10:43:52 PM) Darrell: yeah thats a no brainer
(10:43:55 PM) Darrell: slow finish it with rep
(10:44:05 PM) Darrell: you'll need all that cash anyway to burn through some pretty expensive techs
(10:44:20 PM) Darrell: my biggest fear is that they bulb education
(10:44:24 PM) Darrell: oh
(10:44:26 PM) Darrell: hmm
(10:44:28 PM) Darrell: wrinkle
(10:44:29 PM) Darrell: optics
(10:44:37 PM) Darrell: I need to get that to dreylin for paper
(10:44:52 PM) Darrell: I dont want to swap it to a Philo paper trade, that is for sure
(10:45:15 PM) de krill of Fronce: Well here is another possible problem
(10:45:28 PM) de krill of Fronce: they do bulb edu, or somehow tech it fast
(10:45:34 PM) de krill of Fronce: I need to get lib to within 1 turn
(10:45:54 PM) de krill of Fronce: so realistically, we need a back up plan that involves a late gunpowder
(10:45:55 PM) Darrell: yes, just to make sure we can get at least astro for it
(10:46:02 PM) de krill of Fronce: so, 2 plans
(10:46:09 PM) Darrell: I need to do optics I think anyway to balance teh beakers out
(10:46:22 PM) de krill of Fronce: the steel one, and hte back up, astro, and I think in the backup you do optics instead of engineering
(10:46:46 PM) Darrell: I need to do optics next anyway due to my deal with dreylin
(10:46:53 PM) de krill of Fronce: I don;t have a problem with you teching optics at all
(10:46:54 PM) Darrell: I got to figure out my ETAs to see how this lines up
(10:47:07 PM) Darrell: Optics should be pretty fast
(10:47:53 PM) Darrell: okay so I am Optics -> Philo -> Engineering -> Chemistry
(10:48:10 PM) Darrell: you are Education -> Gunpowder -> Liberalism
(10:48:18 PM) Darrell: I give you Construction and about 300 gold to balance it out
(10:48:24 PM) Darrell: and we share all techs (including Steel)
(10:48:29 PM) de krill of Fronce: with posible partial switching on the last 2 techs on my part depending on the others
(10:48:34 PM) Darrell: correct
(10:48:41 PM) de krill of Fronce: yeah, that deal seems solid
(10:49:08 PM) Darrell: well I can do chem anyway, you can do liberalism before gunpowder
(10:49:08 PM) de krill of Fronce: thing is, I think we have a bonus
(10:49:15 PM) Darrell: then you slow tech steel
(10:49:35 PM) Darrell: bonus?
(10:49:38 PM) de krill of Fronce: because we are forcing the others to have a back up plan to research astro
(10:49:51 PM) Darrell: I am going to try and see what there plans are
(10:49:53 PM) de krill of Fronce: they can't fund and tech to lib
(10:49:59 PM) de krill of Fronce: fatser than we can do the same
(10:50:02 PM) Darrell: I agree
(10:50:13 PM) Darrell: I think Ruff is just not teching a tall
(10:50:17 PM) de krill of Fronce: he isn't
(10:50:19 PM) Darrell: he'll be settler focused for a while
(10:50:30 PM) Darrell: and SL might be doing okay, but he can't knock out the big stuff like we can
(10:50:34 PM) Darrell: biggest fear by far is bulbing
(10:50:42 PM) Darrell: by far
(10:50:53 PM) Darrell: if they dont bulb we get the steel sling
(10:51:28 PM) Darrell: you know the beaker delta from astro to steel is only 536
(10:51:36 PM) Darrell: so it isn't the end of the world if we miss it
(10:51:48 PM) de krill of Fronce: yeah
(10:52:00 PM) Darrell: I mean, who does want 536 free beakers but it wont kill us
(10:52:08 PM) de krill of Fronce: the delta is minimal, it's more the time they arrive, giving more time to get drydocks up while in peace
(10:52:24 PM) de krill of Fronce: whereas galleons first, and got a conflict in the build schedule
(10:52:45 PM) Darrell: right
(10:52:51 PM) Darrell: drydocks are pretty huge on this map that's for sure
(10:53:15 PM) Darrell: Would you have a problem if I shopped engineering around?
(10:53:57 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'm currently down Calendar and Drama IIRC
(10:53:59 PM) de krill of Fronce: oh, and meditation
(10:54:03 PM) de krill of Fronce: you need that
(10:54:03 PM) Darrell: shit
(10:54:06 PM) Darrell: I need to tech meditation too
(10:54:10 PM) Darrell: I'll toss that in to you :P
(10:54:14 PM) Darrell: saves me about 10 gold
(10:54:15 PM) de krill of Fronce: it's like 38 base beakers
(10:54:18 PM) Darrell: yeah
(10:55:43 PM) de krill of Fronce: I think I'd have to question what you could shop engineering around for tbh
(10:55:45 PM) Darrell: do you want music at all?
(10:55:47 PM) Darrell: guilds
(10:55:49 PM) de krill of Fronce: like, what could you get offered
(10:55:49 PM) Darrell: from dreylin
(10:55:56 PM) Darrell: beakers are equal
(10:56:00 PM) Darrell: and feudalism from SL probably
(10:56:11 PM) Darrell: itd be my last trades with those guys in all likelihood
(10:56:26 PM) Darrell: given the shite that is about to go down
(10:56:30 PM) de krill of Fronce: Reckon you could get anything from SL like gold?
(10:56:37 PM) de krill of Fronce: fair enough
(10:56:51 PM) de krill of Fronce: eng does cost more
(10:57:00 PM) de krill of Fronce: and gold would be hard to get, as he has a beaker
(10:57:04 PM) de krill of Fronce: but it slows him down
(10:57:11 PM) Darrell: Ill try it
(10:57:13 PM) de krill of Fronce: more a hypothetical than anything else
(10:57:13 PM) Darrell: thats a good idea
(10:57:18 PM) Darrell: you know
(10:57:20 PM) Darrell: what might be smart
(10:57:25 PM) Darrell: is to try and buy a GS from him
(10:57:38 PM) Darrell: for techs or cash
(10:57:42 PM) Darrell: got to think about that too
(10:57:57 PM) de krill of Fronce: ...like I tried in RBPB3?
(10:58:07 PM) de krill of Fronce: I canreally see that working well
(10:58:10 PM) Darrell: hah-hah-hah
(10:58:14 PM) Darrell: good point
(10:58:34 PM) de krill of Fronce: thought you'd appreciate that
(10:59:28 PM) Darrell: speaking of pb3, your power sure is high
(10:59:39 PM) de krill of Fronce: Yours is higher
(10:59:46 PM) Darrell: surnise is one paranoid sob
(10:59:50 PM) Darrell: but we can't build maces
(11:00:14 PM) de krill of Fronce: fwiw, I'm not paying alot of attention to that game
(11:00:25 PM) Darrell: Im practically a lurker
(11:00:38 PM) Darrell: soooo is doign turnplayer and rego is doing about 75% of the diplo
(11:00:42 PM) Darrell: and surnise is doing the military
(11:00:51 PM) Darrell: Im doing 25% of the diplo and some odd suggestions
(11:00:54 PM) Darrell: just dont enjoy the game at all
(11:00:56 PM) de krill of Fronce: well, I figure I know what the diplo will revolve around
(11:02:13 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'm not exactly playing a standard game there, so don;t really care what happens. Just wondering exactly what I have to do to not die, then realising it isn;t worth the worry
(11:02:18 PM) de krill of Fronce: the PBEM is fun
(11:02:26 PM) Darrell: yeah, the PBEM is very fun
(11:03:00 PM) de krill of Fronce: SL won;t say that in about a fortnight
(11:03:31 PM) Darrell: no, probably no one will be me and you
(11:04:02 PM) de krill of Fronce: TBH, I woonder what Ruff is going to do
(11:04:33 PM) Darrell: get pissed at me
(11:04:34 PM) Darrell: that's for sure
(11:04:36 PM) Darrell: SL too
(11:04:55 PM) Darrell: if they attack me we'll be racing for space
(11:05:07 PM) Darrell: cause I'll be killing them
(11:05:27 PM) de krill of Fronce: or we could just have a very big fight
(11:05:33 PM) Darrell: so you are going Dreylin first or SL?
(11:05:37 PM) de krill of Fronce: Dreylin
(11:05:39 PM) de krill of Fronce: most likely
(11:05:53 PM) Darrell: I suppose I'll need to give you some military help to "earn" my 3 city island
(11:06:05 PM) Darrell: its not covered int he agreement but I'd feel bad making you do all the lifting
(11:06:22 PM) Darrell: Dreylin almost has to be first because he'll be the tougher nut to crack if you wait too long
(11:06:33 PM) de krill of Fronce: the ideal plan, if we get steel, is finish drydocks every where, then revolt to PS/vassalage/caste/something/theo
(11:06:47 PM) de krill of Fronce: and pumps out 3 promo boats and 2 promo units
(11:06:58 PM) Darrell: yeah
(11:07:00 PM) de krill of Fronce: and emulate a swarm of locusts
(11:07:01 PM) Darrell: that's be pretty sick
(11:07:46 PM) Darrell: I'm going to go Engineering before Philosophy for two reasons.
(11:07:57 PM) Darrell: Number one, it doesn't tip our hand
(11:08:03 PM) Darrell: Number two, I might get a discount if someone bulbs it
(11:08:11 PM) de krill of Fronce: two very good points
(11:08:33 PM) Darrell: of course I could lose the religion which hurts my culture chance, but tbh I'd rather go from classical to industrial in 20ish turns than win the game
(11:08:37 PM) Darrell: Honestly
(11:08:47 PM) de krill of Fronce: Yeah
(11:08:58 PM) de krill of Fronce: same sort of reason I agreed to the game long NAP
(11:09:08 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'd like the shot at actually winning a game by dom
(11:09:15 PM) de krill of Fronce: after so many alliance based games
(11:09:20 PM) Darrell: so obviously none of this gets discussed beyond us, but I will try and figure out what dreylin in particular is planning techwise
(11:09:35 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'm guessing angkor wat
(11:09:39 PM) Darrell: I'll do it by offering engineering for guilds and see if he says "philo is next" or something like that
(11:09:42 PM) Darrell: same with SL
(11:10:13 PM) Darrell: oh, anotehr point
(11:10:20 PM) Darrell: let's delay trading techs with each other until the last second
(11:10:22 PM) Darrell: as much as possible
(11:10:27 PM) Darrell: our paths are fairly orthogonal
(11:10:34 PM) Darrell: it will further throw people off that we are working together
(11:10:37 PM) de krill of Fronce: yeah, ok with that
(11:10:54 PM) Darrell: in fact
(11:11:08 PM) Darrell: we don't have to do any trade until philo to enable you to go for liberalism
(11:11:19 PM) Darrell: thats 4 techs away for me
(11:11:28 PM) de krill of Fronce: Don;t want to make it look too unnatural
(11:11:35 PM) de krill of Fronce: so
(11:11:35 PM) Darrell: yeah
(11:11:38 PM) de krill of Fronce: I slow tech machinery
(11:11:42 PM) de krill of Fronce: then I gift to you
(11:11:47 PM) de krill of Fronce: claim as payment for CS
(11:11:55 PM) de krill of Fronce: then do Edu
(11:12:00 PM) de krill of Fronce: I'm not gifting that to anyone
(11:12:00 PM) Darrell: right, that's probably known
(11:12:17 PM) Darrell: you want to finish edu only when you hae enough cash to rip liberalism and gunpwoder as well
(11:12:19 PM) Darrell: right
(11:12:20 PM) de krill of Fronce: then gunpowder for chem
(11:12:31 PM) de krill of Fronce: or straight onto lib, and we only do that if they know anyway
(11:12:34 PM) Darrell: with an emergency swap to liberalism if need by
(11:12:35 PM) Darrell: be
(11:12:47 PM) de krill of Fronce: yeah
(11:16:30 PM) de krill of Fronce: btw
(11:16:49 PM) de krill of Fronce: if fued is in 4, and Dreylin is getting paper in like 6.
(11:16:53 PM) de krill of Fronce: *8
(11:17:23 PM) de krill of Fronce: How long would a suspected guilds research project take?
(11:17:31 PM) de krill of Fronce: For SL, a further 7 turns?
(11:20:57 PM) de krill of Fronce: Arguably if you could get SL down for guilds next that would be one of the last few nails in the coffin

[Krill]

I should admit that at first I felt like scum for agreeing to that deal with Darrell, but tbh, it was agree or face a 4v2 dogpile (I'd gift yaz everything to keep him alive and screw over everyone else). For Darrell it wasn't as clear cut, he could have risked it and I probably wouldn't have invaded if he continued to tech trade with me, but he decided to force the issue, and you can't really blame him IMO.

But ultimately, all of this started from Ruff deciding to attack Yaz. SL should have grown faster, and Dreylin needs to tech faster. Me and Darrell worked together early on with the wonder splits, and since then have just got on with the business of growth.

[Krill]

I rang Yaz up with this deal yesterday, and he agreed once he got back to his computer. So, I get 2 health from Yaz for 3 duplicate resources. It is only a plus 1 for yaz though, as that is his only rice. I said I could offer him a duplicate corn once I hook that up for a cow, can do that in about 4 turns.

This health is worth about 4 fpt to me right now. not alot, but better than nothing. I can't really see this pissing Darrell off, the extra health should be worthless to Yaz.


Here are the graphs for the 3 important catagories. As a reminder, I am making 85 culture per turn, so that is a large distortion on the GNP graph. Darrell for comparison shouldn't be making more than 20.

[Krill]

From darrell:

Okay, so like I said I started planning out my cultural victory path and after almost falling asleep 2-3 times realized it was going to take make the game boring. OTOH, I do enjoy space. I recognize on this map space (esp. at Quick) that space will take longer than culture, but I'd still like to go there. So, here is what I'm thinking:

Krill Gets
1. I go for space and not culture.

2. I join in on the attack against Dreylin (thinking of contributing somewhere around 25% of the total force).

3. I agree not to settle any new island cities (so basically 11+3+3 = 17/18 total).

4. I will provide you Oil and Coal if you lack it (and I have spares).

Darrell Gets
1. I get to join in on the attack against Dreylin (really want some war action to spice things up).

2. I get the first three cities on the Gold island to my north, in addition to three cities in Dreylin's land. The three cities in Dreylin's land can be small islands so as not to claim too many tiles, but need to be viable (at least one seafood).

3. You agree to help me continue teching even after you have the military techs you need to win the game. I don't see the need for a hard rule here, I'll trust you to give valid effort here.

4. You agree to attack SL and Ruff only after Dreylin is totally dead (they've been my friends).

We Get

1. In addition to sharing Sid's, we agree to share Mining, Inc. This one is pretty big for you IMO because I'm pretty sure I can get it and it will help you over a longer part of the game than me.

Darrell

[Rowain]

Interesting. Now you should answer that the change is fine but you prefer to go after culture

[Krill]

Basically told Darrell either he should have all of hte island, or I should have all of it, and I make sure he gets an equal land area from Dreylin.

(2:28:23 PM) Darrell: So I am okay with the island thing but there is a rather embarrasing rub
(2:28:33 PM) Krill: hmmm?
(2:28:47 PM) Krill: Ruff not puling his weight?
(2:28:53 PM) Krill: Slowing down taking out Yaz?
(2:28:53 PM) Darrell: You follow pbem1?
(2:29:00 PM) Krill: yeah, I followed PBEM1
(2:29:10 PM) Krill: oh, doing an m-h?
(2:30:06 PM) Darrell: Remember how athlete signed a nap and mdp? Well apparently I did the samw (with ruff) during our little war with yaz. I didn't recall it but he has chat logs that look familiar
(2:30:38 PM) Krill: For the remainder of hte mg
(2:30:42 PM) Krill: *game?
(2:31:08 PM) Darrell: So when you attack ruff plan on attacking mr too...I won't go into your territory but feel free to enter mine
(2:31:29 PM) Darrell: The chat logs don't specify but yeah that is what he said
(2:31:37 PM) Darrell: Means I can't win basicaLly
(2:31:59 PM) Krill: unless you let someone down.
(2:32:18 PM) Krill: yeah, I was wondering if this was going to happen
(2:32:28 PM) Darrell: Best compromise I had was support him but refuse to invade you
(2:32:44 PM) Darrell: I let both of you donw a littlw insterad of one a lot
(2:33:21 PM) Krill: I see
(2:33:53 PM) Darrell: Yeah...I'm an idiot what can I say
(2:34:07 PM) Krill: I wouldn't say that
(2:34:33 PM) Darrell: I have a diplo list that I failed to add an mdp to
(2:34:38 PM) Darrell: That's prett stupid
(2:35:03 PM) Krill: I'd say that at worst you got manipulated by the events and your conscience
(2:35:54 PM) Krill: You do have to be a bastard most of hte time to win
(2:35:59 PM) Darrell: That's kind but if I paid better attention it was probably avoidable. In any case, let's sling steel
(2:36:15 PM) Krill: works for me
(2:36:18 PM) Darrell: Dreylin really leaning on me to stop trading with you
(2:36:20 PM) Krill: treating hte game as a concept game
(2:36:24 PM) Krill: hehe
(2:36:38 PM) Darrell: We need to make sure we get paper out of him
(2:36:40 PM) Krill: if he doesn't have plans to attack me I'll eat my hat
(2:36:42 PM) Darrell: You do
(2:37:03 PM) Krill: What about this.
(2:37:09 PM) Darrell: He won't give it to me without a deal but that m/eans no optics
(2:37:26 PM) Krill: I trade machinery to SL for Fued, as we agreed
(2:37:44 PM) Darrell: Right
(2:38:53 PM) Krill: IF SL then trades machinery to Dreylin, you trade me Theo and Paper (if you have paper, if not trade me Drama as a make weight). Basically, if Dreylin backstabs, you keep things even. I would say that only do this if you think it is fair, not if I'm pressuring you.
(2:39:18 PM) Darrell: That is fair I think
(2:39:27 PM) Krill: ok
(2:39:41 PM) Krill: I can probably research paper in 3 turns with plenty of overflow
(2:39:48 PM) Krill: well, adequete overflow
(2:39:51 PM) Darrell: Need to find some wau to get dreylin to honor our paper/optics deal
(2:39:55 PM) Krill: without anyone else knowing it
(2:40:05 PM) Darrell: When is machinery do, btw?
(2:40:16 PM) Darrell: Right
(2:40:17 PM) Krill: 5 turns with no tech, but can research it whenever I want
(2:40:26 PM) Krill: in 1 tunr
(2:40:44 PM) Darrell: Perfect I can get optics when he gets paper
(2:40:57 PM) Krill: so, get machinery next turn?
(2:41:07 PM) Darrell: Our plan let's us not trade for 15 turns or so
(2:41:18 PM) Krill: ok
(2:41:32 PM) Darrell: So ill tell drylin we aren't doing any business in the short term
(2:41:49 PM) Darrell: No I meant when is mach due at 100% cash?
(2:41:59 PM) Krill: at 100% cash due in 5 turns
(2:42:18 PM) Darrell: Paper in 7 I think
(2:42:25 PM) Darrell: Optics will take me 5
(2:42:33 PM) Krill: at 100%?
(2:42:37 PM) Darrell: Maybe speed it up to 3
(2:42:39 PM) Darrell: Yeah
(2:42:47 PM) Darrell: 100%
(2:42:52 PM) Krill: ...I thought you were making more tech than that
(2:43:07 PM) Krill: ah, I remember
(2:43:23 PM) Krill: I was recalling you with 100% foreign trade routes
(2:43:32 PM) Darrell: Its 402 beakers right?
(2:43:40 PM) Darrell: Yeah
(2:43:49 PM) Krill: 600 adjusted
(2:43:51 PM) Krill: so 500 base
(2:44:05 PM) Darrell: It might be 4 turns
(2:44:08 PM) Krill: provided no one else knows it
(2:44:12 PM) Darrell: Right
(2:44:28 PM) Darrell: Its not a total loss if the trade fails
(2:44:39 PM) Krill: Yeah
(2:44:42 PM) Darrell: Paper is more importaqnt for you
(2:44:48 PM) Darrell: As education boy
(2:45:01 PM) Krill: And if he doesn;t trade it I'll get it fast enough as I'll have to tech it
(2:45:10 PM) Krill: which is my main problem
(2:45:13 PM) Krill: nothing ot tech
(2:45:46 PM) Darrell: Cash for the lib run
(2:45:58 PM) Darrell: Its what I'm doing waiting for machinery
(2:47:32 PM) Krill: well...I make over 250 bpt if I absolutely max out on beakers, but nly while I have the cash reserves
(2:47:35 PM) Krill: so...
(2:47:41 PM) Krill: should scare the others somewhat
(2:47:51 PM) Krill: and that is without the academy
(2:48:30 PM) Krill: should be about 300 by the time I get the academy in place
(2:48:41 PM) Krill: so SL isn't a threat
(2:48:47 PM) Krill: especially as he just got the GE
(2:48:50 PM) Krill: so no bulb
(2:48:56 PM) Krill: but he cold bulb machinery
(2:49:01 PM) Krill: or guilds
(2:51:11 PM) Darrell: 250 is sick
(2:51:26 PM) Darrell: I migth be 200 after yaz is dead
(2:52:05 PM) Krill: building research everywhere isn;t exactly a perfect long term solution, but for Lib, it always seem to be the edge needed.
(2:52:40 PM) Darrell: Yes
(2:52:42 PM) Darrell: Def

[Krill]

Got a GProphet, not a GS . Added it to Vp, future WS city for the gold. Considered saving it to bulb DR and go for Versaille, but I havd about a 40% chance of getting another GP in the next 15 turns, so don;t really see the point (NE due in 3).

Both pictures taken before ending turn, at min and max science. Should be capable of Education in 7 turns using all of my saved gold, but not building any wealth/research. 5 turns if I built research (not that I should, Darrell couldn't get Philo that fast...I think).

[Krill]

OK, not posted muc recently, but then, not a lot happpens in 3 turns.

Here is a picture of the island I am developing. Note that Moia is due in 5 once I end turn, lighthouse, granary and forge are already built.

I explored, and have defended the southern island with nothing more than the explorer that I upgraded from that scout I built to pop that hut. I have possibly the most awesome military in the entire game as well.