[SPOILERS] naufragar and Rusten get nickel-and-dimed

[naufragar]

When you are close to me, I slither.

Spoiler for password.

sam

[naufragar]

Rusten has decided he wants to see this trainwreck up close. I warned him, as I now warn any potential readers that I’m setting my reporting bar lower. In PB41 I felt terrible that I didn’t report as much as I felt my dedlurkers deserved and by setting the bar lower, this way I can only surpass expectations.

I’ve got some unexpected free time, so here’s some thoughts on civs. I haven’t followed RtR development. I trust the RB greybeards to know what they’re doing, so I might be saying things that are old hat. I’m also doing this away from civ, so I can’t double check the patchnotes.

Still Excellent
Inca: Inca is amazing. The granary is almost always the first building to go in any city and the Incan granary solves border popping problems. In addition, in this version of the mod, it has a 25% discount. The discount can’t be paired with Protective, but we can think of the Terrace as (very) roughly one third of Protective and one half of Creative. So almost a full trait by itself. Inca starts with Mysticism about which decisions have to be made.

Zulu: The Ikhanda is very solid. In this version of the mod, it isn’t more expensive? But can’t get discounted by Agg. It’s just really nice to cut down on city maintenance. The +100% build speed from iron is gravy. The  impi, on the other hand, is pure terror. It’s a two mover that kills their two movers. A stack of impis and chariots pillages just about anybody back to turn zero. On top of all this, Zulu techs are good.

New and Very Improved

Babylon: Am I reading this right? Babylon seems absolutely bonkers now. It has a discounted granary, so any leader gets a 33% boost to granary speed rather than the 100% that Pro gives. 33% seems like a long way from 100% but anything that gets a granary closer to a one pop whip is amazing. In addition, this granary is available at Agriculture, which means that if Babylon is paired with a fast leader, the player can get started on/ sink hammers into granaries in that occasionally awkward time between sending out enough workers & settlers and reaching pottery.

Persia: I really like the new Persia UB barracks. It still gets discounted by Agg, so Agg leaders have a great way to pop borders. In addition, the +1 happy on a natural map is going to be significant. A 1-pop whipped Satrap’s Court is happiness neutral, which is interesting. I’m too lazy to do the math right now, and I’m sure Krill’s done it, but does the Immortal (Maceman UU with +50% vs. mounted) obsolete pikes? If so, oh boy that’s exciting. You still probably want to attack with knights rather than maces but still…

New and Interesting
Germany: Germany gets a new forge that gives -25% city maintenance. It still doesn’t have a unique unit. I’m a big fan of forges, and I’ve come to believe that Ind is decently strong even without taking into account the wonder bonus. Germany with an Industrious leader is interesting to me.

Mongolia: Is the Ger great? (In this version, it’s a stable that gives +4xp to mounted units, +1 culture, doesn’t get boosted by Agg but does by horses, and requires archery. I can’t check the mod right now to tell if this is instead of HBR or in addition.) Play as Agg/Cha to make the neighbors very nervous.

Still Good
Mali: Yup. Mali’s still good.

Not Good but Interesting
Native America: So, hear me out, their scouts can turn into monuments, which means that cities with lots of production can pump out 15h two movers to give border pops to new cities. That’s at least interesting, right?


I had warned Rusten that I was looking for some sort of “cute” combo. For example, I had seriously wanted to be forced to play Alexander or Louis. Unfortunately, a snake pick means all the other players will be playing something good, so I can’t have the dream of Alex of Rome. Still, with some concession to not playing trash, here’s a possible list of quirky new RtR civs.

Babylon
Persia
Inca
Zulu
Mongolia
Mali

Inca and Zulu made the list because I’m not masochistic. They’re both clearly better than Persia, although perhaps Babylon beats Zulu. I’ve also been reading patchnotes on a phone, so I might’ve missed something great.

Whatcha thinking, Rusten?

Edit: NOOOOOOO! Just after I write all this up, Krill updates the mod. Different Persia. Super buffed America. Must do the thinking again.

[Rusten]

I'm surprised the new Japan is not on your radar given it's a B&S map. Good and new.
I've only skimmed the mod so I might change my mind later, but starting thoughts related to what you wrote*, by section:

Still excellent:
Nothing to add really. This is your game first and foremost and you should pick what you want to do while I just tag along, but I'm not inspired to play the same old Inca/Zulu personally.

New and very improved:
Babylon looks very good yes. Just overall high power level which leaves you to play the map fully. While Persia differs from your original post I still think it belongs under new and improved. That market looks real good and EXP is good on B&S. Maintenance can be a pain on B&S, your empire is not as compact as on normal pangea landshapes.

New and Interesting:
Germany was one of the new ones that caught my eye too. A bonus that grenadiers (and its replacements) are better for B&S maps (need navy). I think you're underselling the UU. 14 STR grenadier is no joke. You can get amphibious on those babies. I was sad about not getting to use guerilla 3 grens in PB41, but I suppose that kinda proves your point -- the game was over by then.

Mongolia is pretty meh for me. From the wording I think you can build the UB with archery. I tend to favour economic traits/civs over military though. Build the economy first and then kill.

Nothing to add on Mali, but I think Native America is trash. You can usually pre-chop a forest for the monument anyway. It's mildly useful for the inevitable B&S fishing villages.

*I'll put what I've already written up in a separate post to avoid clutter. It would get real long.

[Rusten]

This is what I had written up before your post and the mod changes.

Rusten's top tier pick -- the Japanese cheesebulb:




Prioritize Oracle, take MC and use a GE to bulb machinery. Early samurai for fun and conquest.
Further synergies:
EXP+Nanban harbour for CR2 samurai. Also gives economic boost on B&S maps.
PHI: Faster GE, faster astronomy.
IND: Faster forges and Oracle.
Samurai has free drill which is a nice win more promotion. Units will take less damage in what would hopefully be overwhelming combat advantages.

Combo of dreams (when everything lines up right): Bismarck of Japan.
Positives:
Quick early development with EXP. Cheap harbours+forges add a lot of hammers to the empire which is a necessity for using expensive units like samurai. With vanilla costs you can't find the hammers to both get this infrastructure and plan an attack at the same time. Goes well with the map (bottom part of the tech tree is important. Colossus for one). If it all comes together it's an insane start, but...
Negatives:
So much is planned out without scouting the map which is always what you primarily play around. This might have to be abandoned, in which case especially the IND trait is quite poor (if we don't do Oracle-MC). Furthermore the IND variation usually relies on a coinflip GE and I expect Japan to go real early in the pick phase as it's both new and good.

One option to keep it more flexible is to take Peter (EXP+PHI) or any other PHI leader and aim to bulb machinery without wonder assistance. He's of many top tier leaders for most B&S maps. This could also guarantee the GE instead of relying on a 55-60% roll. On the whole; great potential, but I'm very wary of going into a game with a preset strategy. This is why I usually prefer economic bonuses.

The out there pick:
India:
If we start landlocked on the big then delaying fishing and going PHI+India seems interesting. If you don't have fishing then you can lightbulb both machinery and engineering with a GS early*. More of a turtle/economic path than the Japan one as the 8 strength pike still isn't all that to attack with. Excellent for defense though, so hopefully you don't get punished, and in time the +2 trade route castles will pay dividends. I can't recommend this right off the bat for a B&S map as there's a good chance fishing is required early, but mentioning it anyway. If you have PHI and you can avoid settling seafood cities until around the 5-6th city then it's not a problem. You can get the 2 required GS and techs cleared early on with a lush map. Capital BFC would need to be very lush and inland to consider it.

*Notable techs that need to be researched/cleared are mathematics+alphabet+IW+MC. Techs that you dodge in bulb priority by avoiding fishing are sailing, compass, calendar.

Other basic things that should be good for the map type without much thought put into it:
IND+Germany
Dutch+anything (Boo! Boring!)
Carthage+anything (Boo! Boring!)
France (astro a big tech, muskets an important unit (draft))
America: Musket UU and seemingly very good UB.
Vikings: Mid to late game important production boost.

[naufragar]

I wish I could describe my reaction while reading this. I opened it up thinking, "Japan? He's joking." And when I saw how clean this plan is, I just cracked up. It's beautiful. I know you say you worry about Japan being taken, but I would be shocked if it's on anybody's radar. At least, it really wasn't on mine. I didn't look at any civs with fishing because it's such a weak tech when you can build the workboats before you get it. A harbor that gives xp? Meh. A maceman that unlocks the same time as its crossbow counter? Who wants that, I thought naively. I would be shocked if someone else picks Japan.

Let's talk about the samurai beeline, because that's the most fun. We'd need the Oracle, and we can't guarantee on a map as roughly balanced as this one might be that a neighbor has marble and we don't. So we definitely need IND. Depending on where we are in the pick order, we might scare other people off Industrious, like if we're 5th or 6th and can get our leader right after our civ. You mentioned the Great People pollution with IND, although I'm having trouble seeing the other variant you imply. With the Ind variation, if we can get our forge built in the Oracle city 8 turns after the wonder, we have a 50/50 shot. If my math's right: (2ProphetPts*8turns)+(2ProphetPts*17turns)+(3EngineerPts*17turns)=101GPP. On the other hand, if we get the forge done impossibly fast, like the very next turn, we have just under a 60% shot. (So this lines up exactly with the numbers you’re using.) Let’s say turn 65 Oracle, which might be optimistic. That puts us at turn 85 for samurai if we land the favorable coinflip? Damn, that’s cool.

That’s me thinking aloud about Industrious. What about techs? If we’re lucky, we’ll only need one terrestrial food tech to get us to Pottery, but we will almost certainly need at least one, perhaps two. We’ll need mining-BW. Also Myst-Medi-Priesthood, and those probably have no other benefit because we can’t be in a religion race with our starting techs. (And good heavens Japan’s starting techs are bad. It’s why I completely passed them by when scanning the notes.) I booted up a standard size big and small and Myst-Medi-Priest is ~320 beakers to Metal Casting’s ~465. The Oracle is 100 hammers for Ind. Is there an argument to be made for not going Ind, or at least not Ind-Oracle? (I don’t think Ind non-Oracle is quite as bad as you say, but yeah, suboptimal.) Perhaps Peter, which you raise as an alternate, is straight up better. We have to ask what we’d do with the Prophet if we missed the Engineer. Judaism?

I’m fascinated by the Machinery beeline enough to say let’s pick Japan first, regardless. Worst case, we book it to Machinery via a bulb and hit somebody who doesn’t have their crossbows ready in time. Let’s rule out Inca and Zulu as not stylish enough. (That’s not the right word. Impi are very stylish.) I’m wary of your India plan because, as you say, it really depends on being land-heavy and we might be fooled by our starting screenshot. Since we both have Ind+Germany, let’s add Germany. I can’t shake the feeling that Babylon is crazy good. You had America down for a good UB and then it got even better since Agg can discount it. Plus, wouldn’t it be fun to have America not bomb in a civ4 game?

That’s four civs (Japan, Germany, Babylon, America). Depending on our screenshot and where we are in pick order we might not need anymore. So many other civs are cool too (e.g. Vikings). Hadn’t intended to write so much, but man that beeline’s exciting. Might not even need Ind to do it.

[Rusten]

Yeah I'm probably more into the Japan strat than others, so we'll likely get it if we want. I'm happy to ride or die with Japan for the good times. Plenty of ways to play it/reach our goal with or without IND and/or the Oracle, although I think PHI is a must without the Oracle. You're right that MC is not that expensive in this mod, so that makes Peter look all the more lucrative. I probably prefer the Peter variation as we can expand and develop harmoniously according to map needs and not force a square oracle into a round peg.

I'm more about IND for the cheap forges than for the Oracle, it just feels weird to beeline MC and then not get forges. That said, the forges are optional, we can use samurai without them too (at least for most cities). And the Peter plan doesn't really beeline MC, but rather machinery -- it's a quick one-two punch. The starting turns will focus on developing the empire.

[naufragar]

HOLD ON. MAYBE MOD BUG. Samurai require iron. Macemen require iron or copper. I think I'll PM Krill because posting in the RtR thread sort of gives the game away. Anyway, here's what I had written before I started fooling around in the game:


I woke up early on my weekend to think about this game. Good sign, I hope.

First, I made a minor mistake: when I checked tech prices, I was in an Emperor game. We're playing on Monarch, so the correct beakers for Myst-Medi-Priest is 304 compared to MC's 448. Essentially the same difference as before.

I think we don't want Ind+Oracle. Oracle city takes 20 turns to produce its mixed odds great person. Phi Forge takes 15. I have to imagine those saved five turns plus the guarantee of an engineer make up for the 145 beaker difference between teching to Oracle and just researching MC. [Edit: I didn't polish this before posting, because I wanted to ask about the metals. You wisely worry about producing samurai that early without forges but with 15 turns of MC before Machinery we should have time to get a couple forges; we can also use queue-upgraded axes to reduce the hammer load.]

So we want Phi. Pardon me if I'm a bit exhaustive talking about possibilities. We want techs that accelerate us to MC. Agg, Pro, Cha, Spi, Org, Fin all don't do it. This leaves Imp, Exp, Cre. I love Imp. Imp gets better if there's better land to grab, but I don't know if that'll be the case here. (I'd take Imp every game ever, but perhaps I can skip it this time.) Exp, as you say, is practically perfect for us. It speeds up our early game and presumably we'll have a lot of fishing villages that could use the hammer savings on all those buildings. What about Cre? I assume our tech path will be something like FOOD-Mining-BW-Pottery-MC. (This leaves out Animal Husbandry, Archery, and a second food tech, whichever of Agri/Hunting we didn't take first. And yeah, I realize I'm playing the civ game in my head and not on the map we'll get.) If that's our tech path, we don't have any way besides barracks to pop borders until we maybe research Myst after MC. This seems rough. Myst is only 66 beakers, so it can be slotted in, but it's definitely not free. Is it worth missing Exp's incredible mid game in order to have border flexibility, especially with opponents who might not give us all the time to set up our dominoes? (coughsuperdeathborschecough)

For the record, Writing-Alpha/Math-Currency is 1150 beakers vs. the 1500 beakers of MC-Machinery. We're bulbing 1000 of those beakers, so I'm nonplussed about opportunity cost. This also illustrates just how far an opponent could be from crossbows when we're rolling out samurai. [And here's where I realized we would need Iron Working as well.]

[Krill]

That's a bug. Samurai should be copper or iron.

[naufragar]

Thanks. Sorry for the all caps post and panicked PM.

[Rusten]

Just to clarify my point regarding IND and Oracle from earlier. Having IND and/or marble doesn't really matter as you can 2-turn it by whipping into it and chopping forests. The bottleneck for early Oracle is usually tech, not production, at least if you want to grab something like MC. This is why I'd only care about IND for the forges. I'm with you on skipping the Oracle, but we will need these techs eventually for hereditary rule.

Hammers and happiness are possible bottlenecks over research, so I wouldn't put all our focus into just speeding up MC. These units have to be built as well. I think we should expect to have to tech Animal Husbandry for camps and I wouldn't worry about affording beakers for mysticism, especially as it's on the path to monarchy. Peter is just perfect. Suleiman (PHI+IND) is good too as he also saves important early hammers which the strategy needs. Alex I definitely like, and you did talk about him before the game started. Relying on barracks to pop borders is better when you have an actual use for the barracks in the short term afterwards too and we could guarantee delaying myst. Maybe I'd even put him 2nd (or 1st! ). I'd be happy with any of those 3 leaders and consider anyone after that a big downgrade. I could see myself swinging one way or the other on Alex/Peter depending on starting location.

For full disclosure I did try to sell the Japan idea as much as possible. While I definitely consider it a strong pick there are easier ways to play the game. Contributing factors that makes me push for it are:
-You said you wanted something cute/weird. I've always been biased toward cute plays too.
-Japan is finally playable (how good is up to people's opinion, but especially for a B&S it's definitely pickable).
-It uses new features/units and this is a test game after all.

I also like how close it puts us to optics/astro on a map that probably has a lot of water. It's a map where skipping civil service makes sense. Naval changes for the mod make Astro less of a freewin, but it's still the tech to aim for if you want to control the seas early. The transport capacity is too low for just using caravels.