GeneralKilCavalry and thestick talk it out

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Lodi's axe is to be able to safetly whip the settler out and keep it covered. However, do you think it is best to whip it this turn, or next turn for some overflow?

Also, I still think red dot is best because it has a 3/2 and 6/0 tile over the worse short-term yields of the jungle city.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

General, TBW, my greetings.

I want to propose a long-term four-way alliance between us three and Cairo. The goal of the alliance is to isolate Raskol and SD and eventually get SD's land split between Gavagai and GKC and Raskol's land split between TBW and Cairo.
Terms of the alliance:
1) We coordinate our research and trade with each other.
2) We have an indefinite NAP between each other.
3) We try to help each other in wars whenever we have the capability.
4) No deals with Raskol and SD without consulting other alliance members.
5) A blanket ban on any tech trading with SD and Raskol.
6) The alliance is for now secret. Do not admit its existence to SD and Raskol, explicitly or implicitly.
7) Any member can leave alliance at any time with 10-turns prior notice.
What's your opinion on that? If you are on board can you forward it Cairo? I have not yet met him and cannot talk. Our most pressing goal, if you are on board, would be to coordinate the first round of tech trading. I want to research Alpha but I am not committed yet. If any of you or Cairo have it on schedule, I would be happy to switch to HBR

Well well well Gavagai, this game is about to get really interesting.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Gavagai's message is probably the watershed moment of this game. Getting this alliance will make this very interesting indeed.

However, there are more pressing concerns.


Barbarians are marching ever forwards, right into the mouths of our axes. I think Toulon should build a spear next, however




Demos are looking ok, even after a 2-pop whip. In 2 turns, we should be much better off.




Getting a scouting galley will be helpful. I think TGL might be quite useful if it's not taken by turn 90.



CY looking tolerable, but its obvious who is ahead and needs to be punished.



Spike by the Inca, but that's ok.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

In terms of micro, here's the near future, referencing and elaborating on red city spreadsheet.
Toulon - starts on a spear, with 16+9=25 hammers of overflow.
54-> 0/35
55->27/35
56 -> growth! 29/35 (work mine)
57 -> spear complete, start on ???

Lodi -> Worker -> axe -> settler, all according to plan.

Arcole -> Granary -> some hammers into a workboat -> whip out a juicy settler.

For city #4, we turn from Bonaparte's early victories in Italy against the First Coalition to the Egyptian campaign (although, for only one battle)
City 4 name: Abukir

Worker 4 name: Thomas-Alexandre Dumas, a fascinating figure, father of the famous Alexandre Dumas, commander of the army of the Alps in 1794, and, quoting wikipedia, "one of the highest-ranking men of African descent ever to lead a European army."

[thestick]

Well, that explains the flurry of posting. Wow, that's big. Go big or go home, I suppose.

Agree with you on the Red dot spot. Easier to defend, easier to get off the ground, and good production for more fun. We definitely need to get Cottages up in Toulon with one of Lodi's Workers.

I'll horribly inexperienced with diplo/meta, so will defer to you mostly.

I think our general strategy, agree with you that we want to ally with Cairo and be pointy against SD. We can deal with Cairo later, though not in the renaissance.

My gut says that this is a good thing. My paranoia says that we have to check the Foreign relations screen to make sure that Gavagai doesn't have relations with Cairo. My brain says that we, Cairo, and Gavagai are a dream alliance for us - we get one border secure, and an ally on the other side of our main rival. The game theory side of me regarding cartels says that we should say we're interested, then commit around the same time Cairo commits. And the historian side of me says to not ship praetorians halfway around the world when alliances are on the line.

What were the mechanics for tech trading we agreed to, again? Do we have tech brokering?

What's your thoughts on how to respond?

(Incidentally last night I had a dream where Raskol got Buddhism.)

Will be out for most of the day. Will work on micro later.

[thestick]

What's that resource on the offshore island? Sheep?

[thestick]

If this goes through, we probably need Sailing soon to get trade routes and resource trades with Cairo running. With the multiple copies of a handful of resources, it looks like more allies = more resource trading = stronger civ.

And hey, I don't quite think GLH is a good idea, but if we do get it, we can negotiate and compensate our trading partners. Maybe. The economist/political economist in me who learned the theory of how gains from trade can be redistributed to create Pareto optimal outcomes is happy. The New Institutionalist/international relations scholar in me is concerned, because of the unenforcability of contracts. And the industrial engineer in me just wants to go back to micro spreadsheets.

[thestick]

My paranoia is telling me that Gavagai is double-dealing us or the deal somehow made its way to Raskol, which would explain why Raskol is posting up a storm. My brain is telling me to not overthink things, since I have a bad habit of overthinking things and putting too much attention on second, third, and fourth order effects vs. the straightforward first order effect.

Another thought: there is a great irony in the fact that after 10 years of Krillmod development and balancing, India and Inca are still so powerful that there's a proposed 4 vs. 2 alliance against them.

[GeneralKilCavalry]

Yes, as usual, the island has more sheep.

The thing is, India and Inca are very powerful now, but it takes expert hands to make good use of them, unlike the old inca (less so india). But given this community, that ends up making little difference.

I think gavagai is double-dealing SD. He truly has no reason to go after us. He would not be sending messages to TBW who is playing as america and a threat to gav if he wasn't sincere. I think at the end of the day, gav will try to split the map with cairo, but that is far off, and this alliance is the best thing we have.

I think GLH is a function of how many island cities we can get out. If we can get 4, then we should get it because even with no foreign trades, we will be netting an extra +2*(# cities) commerce.


I responded favorably to gavagai.

[thestick]

To Charriu: Minor graphical bug.

   

We have not built the Temple of Artemis, yet the screen says that we get a bonus hammer from it. Note that we don't actually get that hammer. We're making 8 hpt + 2 Expansive + 5 food = 15.