[SPOILER] Darius of Ottomans - Vets - Krill

[novice]

A screenshot of the Sunrise theatre and the pigs/copper/wheat site would be enlightening.

[Krill]

[zakalwe]

I'll stick by what I said - thank god Whosit got Pacal of China. Anyone else got that sort of advantage, and game over if they play that competently.

Could you elaborate on this?

[Krill]

China is arguably the best civ in the game, for 3 reasons. It starts with Mining and Agriculture, so it has the most flexible starting techs in the game. On top of that it has the uber theatre that adds 25% culture (great in border cities) and a UU that gives collateral to catapults, with +1 strength and a bonus against melee.

And then Pacal, one of the top 3 leaders for a CTON, cheap granaries, workers, and financial isn't awful. Absolutely no synergy between leader and civ, but there doesn't need to be. It is just the uber combo in this game.

[plako]

a UU that gives collateral to catapults, with +1 strength and a bonus against melee.

You naturally were thinking the right unit, but description got little mixed up. Cho-ku-nu replaces X-bow, that can give collateral damage. also according to civilopedia it also has 2 first strikes instead of 1 that is normal for X-bow.

[zakalwe]

I think maybe he was saying that the Cho-Ku-Nu can also deal collateral damage to catapults?

[Speaker]

China is arguably the best civ in the game, for 3 reasons. It starts with Mining and Agriculture, so it has the most flexible starting techs in the game. On top of that it has the uber theatre that adds 25% culture (great in border cities) and a UU that gives collateral to catapults, with +1 strength and a bonus against melee.

China is in no way, shape, or form, one of the best Civs in the game. They are never even picked in ladder Ironman games. Not a single excellent MP gameplayer would say that they felt China was really great. The starting techs are good, but the second best combination overall. The unique building is garbage. And the Unique Unit is only good in very small circumstances, and gets slaughtered by Knights. It's not like Crossbows make good city attackers, even with the tiny collateral damage chance.

[Krill]

China is in no way, shape, or form, one of the best Civs in the game. They are never even picked in ladder Ironman games. Not a single excellent MP gameplayer would say that they felt China was really great. The starting techs are good, but the second best combination overall. The unique building is garbage. And the Unique Unit is only good in very small circumstances, and gets slaughtered by Knights. It's not like Crossbows make good city attackers, even with the tiny collateral damage chance.

Yeah, but lets look at this logically:

We aren't talking about leaders, so the junk PRO trait isn't involved. We are talking about starting techs that mean you are no more than 1 tech away from a food tech, AH or Fishing, and only 1 tech away from BW for slaving,chopping and copper. Don't need Myst, don't have hunting for the junk scout start, don't need wheel that early because nothing to road. Only tech that could be useful is Fishing, because without fishing at t0 seafood starts are generally weaker than land based food starts with 5 yield tiles and better, especially if you are EXP. So I'd say that the traits are the best combo.

Moving onto the UB, yeah, no where near first tier, but it has it's niche. It isn't the terrace, it isn't the Obelisk, two UB that give you a whole new game to play, but it shines in the medieval era. Settle aggressively, and stack your claim to the land. Get the theatre in a front city, and chop out/slave a monastery after spreading religion. That would give you 6 base culture, or 7.5 adjusted. That gives you a significant turn advantage to popping your borders and making your front city safer, forcing your would be attacker to slave out an army faster, and hurting themselves in the process, or making them leave you alone with your extra land if they can't make the time scale. It gives you that tactical, rather than strategic edge. Unless you are going to go for a culture victory...


And the UU is underrated, especially with flanking in the game. But at the start, let's compare the units:

Catapult: strength 5, can't kill, can get flanked by HA and knights, can't attack amphib or take combat promotions, can take CR. Max collateral =50%

Cho-ko-nu: strength 6, can kill, can't get flanked (can get collateralled), can attack amphib, and can take combat promotions for field combat. Max collateral=60%

Against HA and mace, the CK does about .1 health less damage on collateral, compared to a cat, and equal to a knight, so no real difference when attacking. Both get shit odds on knights, but the Cho-ku gets better odds all round, for slightly higher cost (10 extra hammers). On defence, you want both cats and CK; it isn't a replacement, but combined it means you need to spend less on an army to defend against an incoming stack because you get a unit that can kill and collateral at the same time.

On attack it means that they can't just flank away your cats and shove units into a city to defend. Sure you won't be able to lower the defences, but you will be able to collateral to some extent. And you could be a bastard and bring along 4 cat, and force them to attack with knights/HA into spears/pikes, losing units to flank away a minimal amount of military resources.

You could argue about techs needed to get to Machinery compared to Construction, but in a CTON, when you can use different tech paths as required, and not have to worry about obsolescence? Machinery isn't that hard to beeline if you want it.

Again, it isn't the fast worker, or WC, but it is all round solid. And for that, I'd say it is one of the best in the game when you don't know what to expect, because of the flexibility it gives you.

[Speaker]

Are you really comparing Cho-ko-nus to Catapults? Chos can't bombard city defenses, can't attack longbows, and are more expensive. Like I said, they are horrible city attackers. So what exactly are they good for? Defending? Defending is already easy, and you have cheaper catapults for collateral damage. The medieval era is by far the easiest era to defend. Longbows are godly, walls and then castles are cheap, and Horse Archers and Knights rape catapults due to flanking. The cho-ko-nu is a pointless unit, like the Landsnecht.

And I could name at least 10 unique buildings I'd rather have than a theatre that gives more culture, especially on the Inland Sea map, where you will most likely only have 1 "front" city on each side, maybe 2 if you play stupid/risky. Just work 2 artists in there and slave/chop any other cultural building you need, or....better still....culture bomb it.

And the traits are good, but no better than the Agriculture/Wheel civs (of which there are several in this game).

[Krill]

Why can't CK attack into LB? Yes, CK cost 10 hammers more than cats, but they aren't as fragile when attacking, so they are more useful than cats.

Longbows are godly, walls and then castles are cheap, and Horse Archers and Knights rape catapults due to flanking

I thought we were talking about CK? They don't die to flanking, and take defensive boni, forcing the "defender" to defend differently, tying up more resources.

you have cheaper catapults for collateral damage.

Combined arms? Start off with a couple of cats against knights, then use CK to take out the rest once they get half decent odds. It means you need less units at the front to kill an incoming stack, so you can spend more resources on building. Even though you can defend without them, CK win you win bigger, keeping the snowball rolling.

On attack, it depends when you get to CK how useful they are. If you beeline them, you don't need CS/CoL compared to maces,meaning youcan get them fairly early, before anyone else considersgoing towards machinery. That gives you the window to attack without fear of flanking, in the late classical/early medi era. If someone beelines knights, they aren't focussing on economy techs (so you win there), and if someone stockpiles a huge stack of cats and slowmovers to defend with, youwin there as well because you don't have to attack: the mere threat gives you the opportunity to take control of the game.

Just work 2 artists in there and slave/chop any other cultural building you need, or....better still....culture bomb it.

You don't want to culture bomb though, that costs a GP, you want to be getting academie, shrines and maybe rushed wonders. But if your opponent feels threatened enough to culture bomb you and get into a culture war with the civ whose UB gives +25% cpt...I'd take that battle quite happily.

And with decent culture, 2 city fronts are defendable, if there aren't any double moves like in this game.