Or just waste the turn moving and go farm the grassland river tile depending on how soon AH will be after. I will note not all of the starts have this option.
In general I would be looking at agricultural civs that just tech AH as first tech here, the wet corn is too strong to ignore. Unsure if hunting civ would be fast enough to do agriculture into AH on small size, but I have to admit to being curious about Inca. Edit: obviously only once American has been snatched.
I'm assuming the map size should be announced in the tech thread?
Well, one solution that would make Vikings less smooth would be to place the boost on a different building, e.g. a barracks. Unfun though, and would not fully address the core advantage.
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(April 19th, 2024, 16:43)Mjmd Wrote: Or just waste the turn moving and go farm the grassland river tile depending on how soon AH will be after. I will note not all of the starts have this option.
In general I would be looking at agricultural civs that just tech AH as first tech here, the wet corn is too strong to ignore. Unsure if hunting civ would be fast enough to do agriculture into AH on small size, but I have to admit to being curious about Inca. Edit: obviously only once American has been snatched.
I'm assuming the map size should be announced in the tech thread?
Also, the grass tile NE of the corn is irrigated.
Erebus in the Balance - a FFH Modmod based around balancing and polishing FFH for streamlined competitive play.
Dude, you have wet corn (6 food) and crabs (4 food). This is a worker first start every day of the week and you're probably better off waiting until after your first settler is out before putting 30 hammers into a workboat to improve 1 tile to 4 food.
The corn is dry and improved t17 growth@2 eot18 25/22. Workboat is finished eot5, hooks a crab t6 and then gives a worker eot15 and the corn is improved t21. Because the crab is worked from t6 with the wb it's growth eot21 25/22 so down 18 food but up 30 hammers and about 40 commerce.
The really kicker is what does the worker do after the corn hook up? Can't get AH by then with alot of civs, but wb first can squeeze that in better.
The start needs Ag, Mining, Bronze, and Wheel. Animal Husbandry would be nice but it can wait. (Assuming Japan) Ag, Mining, Bronze is the opening path. Small map tech costs means Ag is done before worker is and mining should be done before the worker can complete the Corn farm on t18. ( 1t into a road on the Sheep en route to the Corn as a freebie). Worker moves to grass hill on t19 and mines 20-23. Bronze won't be finished yet at 9 bpt I think so worker then moves to road to 2nd city site.
6t to farm means growth is delayed to eot19 but with 5f overflow and 14 hammers into something, wb most likely given island start and barbs off. Settler is 11 turns if done at size 2 means eot 30(?). I think that's about enough time to get to bronze with small map tech costs as Japan at 10 bpt. WB and growth to size 3 eot 33.
WB completes eot 23 coinciding with growth after working Corn/PHF for 2t, Corn/Sheep for 1t, Corn/grass hill mine for 1t. Settler starts t24 at 12 foodhammers per turn and and 1 hammer overflow from WB so 9 turns for the settler finishing eot 33. Extra +2 commerce from t24 on
WB-->Worker means growth to size 2 eot 21, Corn farm done on 21, settler eot 31 for a size 2 settler. So 1 turn slower on the settler and 3 worker turns behind worker first vs +54 Commerce which is easily gotten back by picking a civ with two of Ag/Wheel/Mining instead of Fishing.
WB-->Worker-->grow to 4 and 2 pop whip settler is t32 including a turn of anarchy.
That's a short sighted way to look at it though, going to need fishing sooner rather than later: It's an archipelago map, good luck settling offshore without it, so saying "pick a civ with more expensive starting techs" feels wrong to me.
It actually feels relatively well balanced. I'd be interested in looking at the early granary play as Japan. Pottery is right there, after all, and that would give faster pay back than AH. It would work quite nicely with Charismatic (or Expansive).
Wb>worker>granary>wb and then triple whip out two settlers feels like it could be pretty damned fast.
It's less about taking a more expensive tech than Fishing than it is taking a more useful tech than Fishing. This start doesn't need Fishing until after the 1st settler.
Sumeria can go Mining-->Bronze and have Corn farm, grass hill mine, and a road on sheep with a chop completing settler at eot 27.
Quote:Wb>worker>granary>wb and then triple whip out two settlers feels like it could be pretty damned fast.
Ran a quick sim with this + Japan and Washington. Tech path: Ag-->Pot-->Mining-->Bronze-->AH. 1st settler is whipped (3 pop with one chop) eot36, 2nd is whipped (1 pop with a second chop) t39. City is size 2 growing at eot 40. 2nd capital worker can be 2 pop whipped t44
Worker winds up building a road on Corn while waiting for Bronze. Total of 2 chops, 2 roads, Corn farm, and grass hill mine.
and then ran a quick sim with Sumeria and Washington.
Mining-->Bronze-->Fishing-->Pottery. Worker-->WB to size 2 then swap to settler-->finish WB-->WB-->Granary-->warrior.
Settler completes eot 27 with the aid of a chop. City is size 5 with (full) granary and 1t to grow to 6 and 1t to complete the warrior. So 2nd settler triple whipped on 42, second capital worker whipped t45 (44?).
3 chops, 1 road, Corn farm, and grass hill mine, plus one worker turn unassigned.
In both cases the revolt to Slavery was done while the second WB was enroute to the 2nd ring crab. Micro in both cases could probably be tweaked a bit, this was quick and dirty.
I'd rather have the 9t faster 2nd city than the 3t faster 3rd city in most cases. Both sims are lacking in worker turns for the second city (and 3rd!) but simply assigning the worker to chop stuff in the capital Sumeria is up a chop plus one worker turn vs Japan's road due to earlier bronze and earlier worker. Japan is a few turns ahead on getting to Animal Husbandry at t40 but I didn't settle the second city in either run through so the actual beaker difference is around 40 beakers not including the net beaker value of the 9t earlier 2nd city.
Thoth, would you be so kind as to confirm the tech costs? For clarity in a mental sim, looking at corn hooked T17, worker moves to grass mine T18 and start mining T19, but I have no idea if that is possible because I don't know the tech costs.
Edit: This is what I have (with the adjusted Agriculture base cost of 40:
Thanks Civac. Typing up a mental sim for further discussion. It was run prior to checking tech costs but so long as the costs are as above, then the tech fits.
wb>worker>granary>warrior (due to happiness issues). Assumes Japan and Charismatic. No EXP, this is for De Gaulle/Boudicca, only minor changes around growth to size 6 is needed for Stalin.
T0: research Agri, (0/55, +10bpt, build work boat, work plains hill. scout heads west to look around corn, the east will be picked up by border pops.
eot5: Fin Agri 60/55 OF 5b, Fin wb 30/30, foodbox 0/22.
T6: Research Pottery base 17bpt (adjusted 23/110), improve cra, work crab, start worker (0/60, +6fhpt).
T7: Research Pottery base 12bpt (adjusted 16bpt, 39/110)
eot12: Fin Pottery 119/110, OF 6b.
T13: Research Mining base 18bpt (adjusted 18/68)
T14: Research Mining base 12bpt (30/68)
eot15: Fin worker (60/60)
T16 : Start Granary (+2hpt 0/60). Worker moves 4-road/cancel.
T17: Worker moves 7 farm
eot18: Fin Mining 78/68, OF 10b.
T19: Research BW base 22bpt (adjusted 26/165)
T20: Research BW base 12bpt (adjusted 14bpt, 40/165)
T21: worker farm-fin, work corn, foodbox 20/22 +6fpt, Research BW 10bpt (adjusted 52/165), eot growth@2, granary 12/60
T22: worker moves 32 to grass hill. Work corn, clam, foodbox 4/24 +8fpt, Research base 12bpt (adjusted 14bpt 66/165)
T23: worker mine
eot24 growth@3 foodbox 28/24, granary 18/60
T25: Work corn/crab/lake, foodbox 12/26, granary 20/60, (Research BW base 14bpt adjusted 16bpt 110/165)
T26: worker mine-fin, work corn/crab/mine
T27: Worker move 8 road/fin, growth@4 food box 26/26, granary 30/60.
T28: Worker move 7 road/fin, work corn/crab/mine/plains forest hill foodbox 0/28, +5fpt, +8hpt, granary 30/60
T29: Worker moves 96 (to grass hill forest) eot Fin BW 166/165, beaker lost to rounding.
T30: Worker mine.Research anything (Sailing 0/138, due around T40)
eot31: granary fin 62/60, food box 20/28
T32: Turn on avoid growth, work corn/crab/mine/sheep, build warrior 7/15
T33: Foodbox 28/28, turn off avoid growth, eot growth@5 warrior 12/15
T34: Foodbox 22/30, work corn/crab/mine/sheep/clam +8fpt, eot warrior 17/15
T35: Revolt to slavery
T36: Build settler, worker mine-fin, work corn/crab/mine/mine/spice/crab 15+20=35/100
T37: Triple whip settler 137/100, work corn/crab/mine, food box 15/26. Worker does god knows what, probably starts roading onwards.
T38: Build work boat 42/30, foodbox 22/26.
You know what, I would take this sort of start with Boudicca of Japan versus someone taking Washington of Sumeria. That's both seafoods and the corn hooked by T40, good commerce (Fishing is cost 50, Agri is cost 40, so that's a plus for Japan). Use whip overflow from the next settler plus one chop for a lighthouse around T45 for the settler? And I have all the military advantages? Just stack that whip anger as high as it will go then use the capital to push out the first GP whilst the unhappy wears off. This can probably get AH before Sailing as well to grab the sheep, which opens up splitting off the corn earlier and easily maintaining two turn growth.
I suppose it comes down to this point: I don't care about the time to the second city any where near as much as others do, and chopping to speed expansion has to take into account other scenarios which keep the stored hammers available.
Quote:I'd rather have the 9t faster 2nd city than the 3t faster 3rd city in most cases. Both sims are lacking in worker turns for the second city (and 3rd!) but simply assigning the worker to chop stuff in the capital Sumeria is up a chop plus one worker turn vs Japan's road due to earlier bronze and earlier worker. Japan is a few turns ahead on getting to Animal Husbandry at t40 but I didn't settle the second city in either run through so the actual beaker difference is around 40 beakers not including the net beaker value of the 9t earlier 2nd city.
The earlier second city won't have a trade route, so there will not be a beaker bonus there. Essentially the settler rush is reliant on their being another good grain tile to improve, with it there is a path to it working, but without it it will hit a brick wall. Earlier chopping doesn't create more hammesrs either, the cops still exist in both starts. It isn't up a chop, Sumeria is down a forest.
