Tech thread

[Thoth]

So Classical start with advanced start and 300 points which must be spent on 2 cities (settlers), an archer, a worker, and a scout?

Expansive and Imperialistic would both have points left over. I think we house rule that they can't be spent, only converted to gold. If I understand the mechanics correctly, it looks like Imperialistic would have enough points left to buy a 3rd settler or 2nd worker which seems a bit much given random leaders.

[Krill]

Yeah, IMP settlers cost 66, Exp workers cost 44. Joao has enough to buy another worker even at 300 points.

A question is if one wants to lean into it. Bump the points to 400 and that gives every player the option to buy another settler or [worker or granary]/scout/archer. Or 4 archers (OK to house rule this one out!). This feels like it isn't unreasonable. Gives choice, but not too much choice, and helps alleviate the IMP/EXP semi-nerf from Classical era starts. Not enough points to buy a tech, FoW reveal is not a great choice, tile improvements are expensive but can make sense (buy fishing nets for 30 gold, or a workboat for 30 gold, or build one for 30 hammers), and everyone gets their holy city end of the first turn.

TBH this feels a little better than the standard classical start having run a couple of games.

[Thoth]

Holy city on turn 1? Is this an artifact of the advanced start?


Any Imp can buy three 66 hammer settlers for 198 gold. Joao has 16 gold left after buying 3 settlers, a worker, a scout, and an archer. So he could start with a second scout or a warrior. With huts on the scout is a significant advantage.

400 net points (annoyingly the game reduces the points on a "small" map to 80% of what I enter on the Options screen. ) would smooth out the edge Imperialistic gets (4 settlers vs 3 while still giving them a leg up in the early game. I like having freedom of choice with the extra 100g and restricting the first 300 to 2 settlers (or cities), 1 worker, 1 archer, and 1 scout. Imp and Exp can spend their extra points as they see fit.

If someone wants to go 4 archers with their extra 100 gold they can do so. I don't see any way they can profit from it.

[Krill]

Holy city on T1 is indeed an artifact of advanced start. Gives players an incentive to choose the second city location to get the free border pop (although CRE gets the border pop for free anyway, advanced start really did have something going for it, but Firaxis were just too ambitious). FWIW, remember that advanced starts allows tech buys, so they had to give the religion (and any other first to bonus) immediately to differentiate between those that bought the triggering tech and those that quickly researched it.

The point reduction isn't something that I've observed in the most recent RtR mod, I set it to 400, start the game, I get 400 points. Are you seeing that in the base game?

[Krill]

Looking at a few more maps I'd probably support going to 420 points, gives the option of 2 granaries/workers. There are still quite a few starts that there aren't any obvious second city locations, never mind a third. It just feels like it makes the game a bit safer ie a player doesn't get screwed over.

[Thoth]

Holy city on T1 is indeed an artifact of advanced start. Gives players an incentive to choose the second city location to get the free border pop (although CRE gets the border pop for free anyway, advanced start really did have something going for it, but Firaxis were just too ambitious). FWIW, remember that advanced starts allows tech buys, so they had to give the religion (and any other first to bonus) immediately to differentiate between those that bought the triggering tech and those that quickly researched it.

The point reduction isn't something that I've observed in the most recent RtR mod, I set it to 400, start the game, I get 400 points. Are you seeing that in the base game?

That makes sense with the holy cities.   I've been trying out a few starts on a Small Totestra under 6.0.1.1 and I get the points reduction.   Have you been doing standard maps?

I've also not been getting missionaries as Buddhist or Jewish in the two test games I've run as advanced start so looks like we're back to deleting Confucian/Christian missionaries on spawn.

[Thoth]

Looking at a few more maps I'd probably support going to 420 points, gives the option of 2 granaries/workers. There are still quite a few starts that there aren't any obvious second city locations, never mind a third. It just feels like it makes the game a bit safer ie a player doesn't get screwed over.

I approve of having 420 points. 

[Krill]

I've only been testing advanced starts on small maps. Small totestra and small G_T are plenty big foe our purposes.

[Thoth]

Swordsmen have +50% city attack? It seems a bit much.

[Krill]

RtR has been that way for over 10 years, since at least PB18. And yet still HA rule the roost.