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The T170+ Attack on RB thread

As many of you have noticed, we're about to be attacked by 3 nations from turn 170 onwards.

The stakes:

For too long, Team RB has been top dog, and in response to that a dogpile by our neighbours has been brewing. The in wake of the too-fast collapse of the German/Incan team, the situation is desperate, they must do something to drag Team RB back into the pack or else the game is forfeit.

The Good Guy:

We have: a ton of land, a laggard tech rate that will improve as we start working German cottages.

Our strengths: we are close to rifles. Time is on our side, we just to hold them off until we get to rifling and make ourselves nigh invulnerable, and once that occurs time is completely on our side to develop our German holdings.

Our weaknesses: a knack for overconfidence. Do not expect something like the PB2 dogpile, we should always assume the worse and that

The Bad Guys:

In the Northwest, we have Team Apolyton:




What they have:
18 cities, Rifling, Nationhood.

Threat level: High. They have the potential of throwing together an immense army of rifles within a very short period of time using drafts, that we will have a difficult time of dislodging. The are taking The Gauntlet, and are then capable of threatening several fairly new cities with underdeveloped population and cultural infrastructure. They also have access to Knights, but I expect the bulk of their hammer production will go into Catapults.

Their expected goal: take Old Germania for themselves, PB9 style. Make the massive war undertaking that we went into not worth it, and force us into so many whips and drafts that our tech rate suffers and never makes it to or past rifles.

How to deal with them: Expect that Gauntlet will fall, and once they land on flatland, we ruin their stack with Barrage I Catapults and kill the remainder with drafted macemen and muskets. Force them to suffer draft anger and SoZ war weariness until they capitulate to a favourable peace deal. Afterwards, I dunno how good they are at military management.

In the Southwest, we have Team Civplayers:






Threat level: Medium. They have (or will have) similar tech to us. If anything, they'll be behind thanks to the gold gifts to Apolyton. They have a decent amount of production going thanks to continuous Sacrificial Alter whips.

Their expected goal: Brick-by-Brick. I expect (in their minds) that BbB belongs to their sphere of influence thanks to that strangely placed lake, no matter how close it is to our capital. Afterwards, take what they can, Ditchdigger and Seven Tribes are also under threat. And thanks to the oddly placed lake, we're going to have a hard time responding. If we want to guard against both Apolyton and CP at the same time, a good location for a tile to run zone defence is 2N1W of Ditchdigger, as it can respond to any thrusts along that axes. Unfortunately, there's no way we can keep it a secret, Apolyton and CP probably have a gazillion spies running roughshod through our land.

How to deal with them: Hold BbB at all costs, because the SoZ will be crucial to fending off our opponents. Other than that, just kill what we can.

Team Civfanatics:




Threat level: Low-Medium. Thanks to a hot(?) war with CivFR, they are currently distracted. Whether or on they will remain so is unclear. I'm reasonably sure that CFC is completely in the loop with regards to the attack by the two teams mentioned earlier. Yes they were thinking of a NAP with us until T200, but they are still on the fence about it and will happily wait for as long as they can until they can or can not swing a good peace deal with CivFR. And CivFR aren't an existential threat to CFC right now, they'll pull out once they feel their honour is satisfied.

They have nothing to fear from us, as they know were are distracted by our rifle-wielding foes to the west.

Otherwise, their tech rate sucks as much as ours and they don't have anything special over us. They also want time to develop their Spanish holdings and make it productive, which makes it think they'll only be in it for quick gains.

Their expected goal: Wither Starfall or Eastern Gem Dealers. Starfall is under threat from 2-movers, so we'll want muskets and pikes and a Castle holding that city. If they go for EGD, they'll need to spend at least one turn within our territory.

How to deal with them: another stack of cats and hitters, zone defencing from the tile 2S1E of Forbidden, where they can cat any tile they land on. The danger is if they move a big stack of 2-movers 1E or 1SE of Lakambha, as that would pin down a stack inside Starfall, and then they are capable of moving north towards EGD, where the units in Starfall will be tied down.

What else we need to do: Fend off their attacks, buy time, and use the sheer size of our empire to run everyone else over. Churn out more cats. Don't draft for another 2 turns until Gunpowder comes in, as Maces aren't that useful. Build some spies and start scoping out our opponent's stacks.
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(July 13th, 2013, 23:54)Nicolae Carpathia Wrote: As many of you have noticed, we're about to be attacked by 3 nations from turn 170 onwards.

This is not a true statement. CFC is in a war right now. CivPlayers don't have much of anything military-wise.

(July 13th, 2013, 23:54)Nicolae Carpathia Wrote: What they have:
18 cities, Rifling, Nationhood.

They do not have Rifling.


Look, I don't think it's a terrible idea to have a thread like this to discuss the situation, but exaggerating or outright making things up isn't the best way to go about it.
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Yeah, I went a tad too far on the doom-and-gloom and poetic license, but I still think it's good to have an idea of the worse case scenario.
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I would guess that a starting point would be to take the units from the German war and put them near the Apolyton border to defend Gauntlet. They probably will need a few more catapults and some muskets to help, but with enough catapults we'll be able to defend even rifles.

Spies will help quite a bit for finding the CivPlayers attack coming and being able to move our units accordingly to defend. Brick by Brick is the priority, but we have a long border to defend. But most of our new unit production will go to this front.

Really deployment is going to depend on what we are going up against. We'll discover that via C&D and spies.

One thing I think we need to do is sneak in a round of catapults, maybe ahead of our infrastructure.
Suffer Game Sicko
Dodo Tier Player
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I think we should finish our courthouses and swap everything over to units after that, more or less. Most of our courthouses are nearly completed except for the ones that need to be whipped.
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The German cities are perfect for catapults as well. I recomend we start building catapults in the new German cities and basically whip those cities every few turns.
“The wind went mute and the trees in the forest stood still. It was time for the last tale.”
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Catapults will certainly be useful, but what will stop this attack cold will be single drafted, double drafted, and even triple drafted (if necessary) rifles out of the former German cities as soon as they hit size 6. We aren't going to be too far from Rifling tech ourselves, we just need to get some more gold income to fuel our massive potential for deficit research. I would think seriously about running mass Wealth builds for a little while, and whipping/drafting for production, until we can push our way to Rifling tech. I'll look into this further on Monday when I get back. As soon as we can start shoving drafted rifles to all threatened front, this attack falls apart in tatters in a cloud of Statue of Zeus war weariness for all assailants.

Obviously we are not going to try and get the 15,000 beakers needed for Communism before Rifling at this point. Fortunately Rifling is only two techs away. We should be able to get there not long after Apolyton.
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(July 14th, 2013, 04:16)Sullla Wrote: Obviously we are not going to try and get the 15,000 beakers needed for Communism before Rifling at this point. Fortunately Rifling is only two techs away. We should be able to get there not long after Apolyton.

Way to compare apples to oranges. lol
For rifling we need GP, Banking, RP and Rifling. For Communism we need GP, Chemistry, Sci Meth and Communism. 4 techs in both cases.

Once we can log in we can get the beakers required in each case and actually compare apples to apples, or we can do the calculation based on our spreadsheets and whatnot. IIRC PP cost 2880 beakers in game, so we can calculate the other costs from that.

I agree that Rifling first may be prudent. Let's try to reason objectively about it though. Also keep in mind that if we self-research to Communism and get the great spy, we can use it to steal Rifling soon after.
I have to run.
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(July 14th, 2013, 04:16)Sullla Wrote: Catapults will certainly be useful, but what will stop this attack cold will be single drafted, double drafted, and even triple drafted (if necessary) rifles out of the former German cities as soon as they hit size 6. We aren't going to be too far from Rifling tech ourselves, we just need to get some more gold income to fuel our massive potential for deficit research. I would think seriously about running mass Wealth builds for a little while, and whipping/drafting for production, until we can push our way to Rifling tech. I'll look into this further on Monday when I get back. As soon as we can start shoving drafted rifles to all threatened front, this attack falls apart in tatters in a cloud of Statue of Zeus war weariness for all assailants.

Obviously we are not going to try and get the 15,000 beakers needed for Communism before Rifling at this point. Fortunately Rifling is only two techs away. We should be able to get there not long after Apolyton.

Double plus good this.
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Rifling beeline

Rifling (4320)
Replaceable Parts (3240)
Banking (1260)
Gunpowder (2160)

Communism beeline

Communism (5040)
Scientific Method (4320)
Chemistry (3240)
Gunpowder (2160)

So the Rifling beeline is 3780 beakers cheaper than the Communism beeline - that's a not insignificant difference. We also get higher multipliers on the Rifling beeline, though that probably only amount to another hundred effective beakers or so.

But the real trouble with the Communism beeline is that it doesn't help us defend ourselves. Of course, we could go towards Military Science (3600), but grenadiers aren't easily mass-produced, and doesn't receive their special bonus when defending.

One thing I'm thinking of is that I believe Apolyton don't have many workers (evidence: their abysmal road network), and their stack will be made up of slow-movers. What about doing some pillaging of the roads leading to The Gauntlet? It's possible Apolyton doesn't realise the value of combat engineers, and thus will either be slowed down through the desert or will have to follow a predictable path.
Furthermore, I consider that forum views should be fluid in width
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