Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Krill]

Following on from the original thread, I have a question for players, for this beautiful brand new year where we are about to lose some days swapping PB servers and have nothing else to do: What civs would you never pick, would you hate to roll in a random game, and why? And what do you think would improve them, so that you wanted to pick them?

And the counter point: which civs are too good, and need toning down?

Question about civs in RtR mode. My understanding is development has basically halted (by design) on the base RtR mod, making the current set of changes roughly the final set, and any additional mod ideas are going into the gameplay expansion mod (correct me if this understanding is wrong, though even if it is half of what i have to say below is still relevant).

I personally feel somewhat ambivalent about the gameplay expansion mod, not necessarily because of objections to any particular idea in it, but just that I feel weird about playing a mod with the goal of broad gameplay changes as opposed to balancing the civ 4 that already exists. Nothing bad intended towards those who are interested in the concept, and honestly I'll probably try it out once it's done, but it's just not my cup of tea.

But that said, I think RtR still has a one area for reasonably large improvement: civ balance. About 5 civs or so are better than the others, and notably are "interesting", with cool unique buildings/units that you can to some extent base a strategy around. Another set of civs are good enough that you'd feel excited about them as long as you had the right start techs. And then there are the civs that are honestly, just... err meh. Like Germany. Or Korea. None of these are civs that will screw you like some will in base Civ 4 (fixed mostly via start tech balancing), and the gap between weakest and strongest civ has certainly shrunk. But I think there's still room for improvement.

So is there any interest in brainstorming/working on another round of civ rebalancing to RtR? My understanding is most (all?) civ changes can be done via XML, so the coding isn't the hard part here, but rather deciding what exactly needs to change. I don't really care if this becomes RtR 2.0.7.4 or 2.0.8.1 or a mod-mod "RtR-civ-rebalance", but I think it's a worthwhile project.

In the case I was wrong and RtR development isn't done, then this is really just a brainstorming thread for whenever the next wave of changes comes out.

Actual Discussion of Changes:
I think we should shy away from nerfing anything, I don't think any of the top tier civs are so OP that the need to be brough back down to the pack (possible exception: Zulu and the rushes it enables, but I don't feel anywhere close to strong about that). Instead I think we need to identify the civs that have little to their name and think about giving them small to medium buffs, the idea being every civ should feel roughly as exciting or solid to play as something like Inca or Aztecs or Zulu (my opinion of which civs are the best atm) do right now.

Candidates for upgrades in my opinion (and to be clear upgrade doesn't mean I think these are unplayable or suck, but that there is clearly room for buffs while not breaking the current top-tier ceiling)
Germany
Maya
Korea
Greece
Japan
Ethiopia (this one is close, Oromos are pretty cool)
Spain (impacted a ton by the power of Free Market and Economics obsoleting the UB, if the Free Market balance fixes work then this one feels fine to me)
America (as far as I know hasn't been played up to Rifles with new changes, so maybe minutemen changes are better than I think. Woodsmen feels pretty useless by that point of the game though, and Guerilla only ok)

Another catagory that I haven't gone through and made a list for yet are the civs that feel pretty useless without trait-synergy. These I feel like could use small buffs to their non-trait-synergistic aspects to make them a bit more generally interesting. However, they often aren't really that weak, so might be worth leaving off. Good example of civs in this category are Khmer or Russia. And America if it isn't in the above catagory.

So, anyone else interested in working on this? Where working means thinking of what changes to make to what civs, not coding, that should be easy and a bridge to cross when we come to it. I can probably do it myself, never modded civ 4 before but have a reasonable amount of coding experience.

I haven't really thought about it enough to have an opinion on which civs are least fun to play, but I'm happy to make dumb suggestions to make the list you wrote more fun. Presumably they have to be start tech, UU or UB related?

Germany
(Hunting, Mining, Kannone, Assembly Plant at Steam Power)
- Give the Kannone a promo? Accuracy or Barrage or just some free XP? It's hard to give them anything earlier in the tech tree as Germany only existed for the last 200 years.

Maya
(Mysticism, Mining, Holkan, Ball Court)
- Should the Colosseum be cheaper? Or give the Holkan Blitz .

Korea
(Agriculture, Mining, Hwacha, Seowon)
- the Seowon is a disappointingly small bonus on a building you only tend to build to enable Oxford anyway, would +50% science or +25% science, +25% cash make it more attractive? Or maybe it could be cheaper?

Greece
(Fishing, Hunting, Phalanx, Odeon)
- The Phalanx is actually pretty good, saves building spears before HBR, if the Colosseum was cheaper the Odeon would be better.

Japan
(Fishing, The Wheel, Samurai, Pagoda)
- Pagoda is interesting but a bit anti-synergistic. Samaurai's 2 first strikes isn't exciting, perhaps adding Cover automatically would be good - defenders tend to be Longbows at this point in the game...

Ethiopia
(this one is close, Oromos are pretty cool)
(Oromo Warrior, Stele, Hunting, Mining)
- the Stele is only really useful for culture wars, if it didn't go obsolete with Astronomy then it could be handy for a culture victory too?

Spain
(impacted a ton by the power of Free Market and Economics obsoleting the UB, if the Free Market balance fixes work then this one feels fine to me)
(Fishing, Mysticism, Conquistador, Citadel)
- Actually I think the Conquistador is improved by the tech cost increases giving it a longer lifespan, so I don't think this needs further buffing

America
(Fishing, Agriculture, Minuteman - rifle with G1 W1, Mall - grocer with happy)
- 2XP gives you a hill or forest 2-mover, 5XP gives you G3 for a bonus attacking hills and a 50% withdrawal chance. Or 16XP for C1 M1 W3 gives a 25% medic if you can't spare a great general for a 45% medic. I don't think it really needs the buff...

Germany
(Hunting, Mining, Kannone, Assembly Plant at Steam Power)
- Give the Kannone a promo? Accuracy or Barrage or just some free XP? It's hard to give them anything earlier in the tech tree as Germany only existed for the last 200 years.

Well, Landsknechts...

Maya
(Mysticism, Mining, Holkan, Ball Court)
- Should the Colosseum be cheaper? Or give the Holkan Blitz .

Creative, it's excellent. Only Mining/Myst option too. Holkans get drill one!

Korea
(Agriculture, Mining, Hwacha, Seowon)
- the Seowon is a disappointingly small bonus on a building you only tend to build to enable Oxford anyway, would +50% science or +25% science, +25% cash make it more attractive? Or maybe it could be cheaper?

How about 1-2 less required for Oxford unlock?

Greece
(Fishing, Hunting, Phalanx, Odeon)
- The Phalanx is actually pretty good, saves building spears before HBR, if the Colosseum was cheaper the Odeon would be better.

I've been Creative Greeks twice, I like 'em. No issue with the start techs better IMO.

Japan
(Fishing, The Wheel, Samurai, Pagoda)
- Pagoda is interesting but a bit anti-synergistic. Samaurai's 2 first strikes isn't exciting, perhaps adding Cover automatically would be good - defenders tend to be Longbows at this point in the game...

Drill 1 and cover? Not bad. Or go a totally different route...strip those first strikes/drill but make them 2-move!

Ethiopia
(this one is close, Oromos are pretty cool)
(Oromo Warrior, Stele, Hunting, Mining)
- the Stele is only really useful for culture wars, if it didn't go obsolete with Astronomy then it could be handy for a culture victory too?

No idea, but I think it's probably okay. Maybe Stele cheaper?

Spain
(impacted a ton by the power of Free Market and Economics obsoleting the UB, if the Free Market balance fixes work then this one feels fine to me)
(Fishing, Mysticism, Conquistador, Citadel)
- Actually I think the Conquistador is improved by the tech cost increases giving it a longer lifespan, so I don't think this needs further buffing

Eh, no big opinion.

America
(Fishing, Agriculture, Minuteman - rifle with G1 W1, Mall - grocer with happy)
- 2XP gives you a hill or forest 2-mover, 5XP gives you G3 for a bonus attacking hills and a 50% withdrawal chance. Or 16XP for C1 M1 W3 gives a 25% medic if you can't spare a great general for a 45% medic. I don't think it really needs the buff...

Yeah, Mall is good, this is fine.

And this in the context of the 2.0.9.1 change:

Zulu: Ikhanda: -10% city maintenance (down from -20%)

Work boat: requires no tech (working water tiles still requires Fishing, stolen from Seven and ToW) (instituted in 2.0.8.5 for PB41)


New proposed changes:

Fishing Civs rebalance:

America - new UB Armoury - +1XP to Gunpowder, +1XP to Mounted, +1XP to Armour, +2XP to Melee
Byzantine - Fine
Carthage - Fine
England - Stock Exchange changed to 160 hammers, +65% gold, -15% city maintenance
Greece - Fine
Japan - Change to Fishing/Agri, Pagoda to +45% science (no hammer bonus)
Native America - No change needed
Netherlands - Affected by caravel/privateer change, fine.
Portugal - Affected by caravel/privateer change, fine.
Rome - Fine
Spain - Citadel obsolete at Scientific Method
Vikings - Fine

Mongolia: Keshik now immune to first strikes (brought into line with HA and HA replacements, due to PRO change below).


Naval changes:

Caravel, strength 4, -30% against galleys and triremes, 1 capacity (can transport any units), remove ability to enter cultural borders [Other stats unchanged, 60 hammers, requires Optics, 3 moves]

Carrack: Increase to strength 4, -30% against galleys and triremes, 4 moves, 2 capacity. remove ability to enter cultural borders

EIM: Lower to 3 capacity (unsure if change matters, it probably isn't needed), remove ability to enter culture without OB

Privateer: Requires Optics and Paper (other stats unchanged, cost 80, strength 6, 4 moves, hidden nationality, requires iron or copper)

Ship of the Line: iCollateraldamage = 75, iCollateraldamagelimit = 70 (ie 30% hp max damage from collateral), iCollateralDamageLimit = 5

Ironclad: Decrease to 1 movement point. Starts with Navigation 1 and Flanking 1 promotions, 1 free strike strength 12, no defensive bonus, requires iron, coal, steel and Steampower, costs 120.

Traits

PRO: Remove free CD1, give free Drill 3 (+2 free strike chances) to Archery and Gunpowder Units
FIN: +35% production of Library
IND: Can build 2 copies of all national wonders (I figured out how to do it without SDK modding, slightly messy but completely functional), +100% production of forges. NB wonder production modifer REMOVED!