Civs in RtR: Thread 2

[Charriu]

First of all with this change I would also rename the UB to "Academy" which would be more fitting with the bonus.

I have to say I find this bonus somewhat boring. It feels somehow wrong that Greece does not have a UB somehow related to culture. For a moment I thought about something crazy like "+1 XP for every 20% of culture rate". Or maybe the UB gives land units the Leadership promotion instead of the XP bonus.

[Krill]

Would it be too OP to give the odeon +1XP to all land units in addition to the normal colosseum effects ? The main difference would be that you'd get a non-civic way to give your non cavalry units double promo, and I can't see how it would make Greece above Inca in terms of OPness

I agree that the suggested power level seems...crap, TBH. This is a better option, and easily implementable. Is the UU also enough though?

[Krill]

First of all with this change I would also rename the UB to "Academy" which would be more fitting with the bonus.

I have to say I find this bonus somewhat boring. It feels somehow wrong that Greece does not have a UB somehow related to culture. For a moment I thought about something crazy like "+1 XP for every 20% of culture rate". Or maybe the UB gives land units the Leadership promotion instead of the XP bonus.

XP that can be varied turn by turn is actually a really bad idea, because what you do is spend one turn finishing a unit in every city to try and get the maximum XP for minimum cost. It adds to micro: this is actually the reason why great general points were not implemented into the original GP system: if the specialist gave XP, then it would only be used on the turn that the unit was produced as there was no way to track it without massive changes to the save game construction (paraphrasing a dev in the beta there).

Leadership promotion is actually quite a lot of power. It's one idea I toyed with for the Research Institute, but I came to the conclusion that leadership on every unit is fucking bonkers once you get rolling.

[Krill]

Greece: Hunting/Fishing. UB: building replacement: Odeon. +1XP to all land units in addition to base Colosseum XP. UU: Axe replacement. Phalanx. +100% defence against chariots.

Is this OK then? Thinking about it a bit more, uncounterable axes are real power, so the UB has flavour from the time it's built onwards. Seems OK, comparable to Mongolia. I'd probably pick this with Charismatic just to make the UB more accessible, but it can work with any none CHM leader as well. Would it be worth just dropping the cost of the UB though? Maybe drop it to 60 hammers? Don't forget, it gives +2 happy anyway as a colosseum.

[AdrienIer]

It's going to be hard to make every civ Inca-tier but making that UB cheaper is probably a good way to make Greece closer to that tier. The colosseum is still a building that you don't usually build everywhere on luxury heavy maps

[Krill]

60 hammer cost (down from 80) and keep the CHM production bonus? That seems reasonable. Mongolia can use the Ger to pop borders, so it has a role for cities to be built early on, but the Odeon has no value until you want to grow a city and the barracks will do the same job but pop borders as well. So seems like it is in a reasonable spot there.

[Krill]

Move onto Maya: We have the Zulu to compare the Holkan to, and the Odeon to compare the Ball Court to.

Maya: Mysticism/Mining. UB: Colosseum replacement: Ball Court. +4 Happiness. UU: Spear replacement. Holkan. Strength 5.

Shoot me. What is better: an axe that negates the chariot disadvantage, or a strength 5 spear? You decide, because what I've done is take the Vanilla civ 4 Greek UU and given it to Maya here. Personally, I don't care if Greece has the reimagined Phalanx as above, or Maya has it. Out of Greece, Maya and Zulu, are there any civs that stand out as too good or too bad? Because a 4 happy building is good for any player, and a 4 happy building that costs 40 hammers when you already have +2 happy allows size 10 cities, essentially unrestrained growth.

[AdrienIer]

I assume it's strength 5 AND +100% against mounted. It makes them a really strong deterrent to mounted units : HAs get slaughtered and knights only get odds when promos come in the equation. They can also crush archers in an early rush, and don't get slaughtered by catapults.
I'd say that the axe replacement is generally better because you can use it offensively and not be afraid of anything until HAs, while a strength 5 spear still gets cleaned by axes even in the early game.
I really like this strength balance. It's definitely Inca-tier

[Charriu]

First of all with this change I would also rename the UB to "Academy" which would be more fitting with the bonus.

I have to say I find this bonus somewhat boring. It feels somehow wrong that Greece does not have a UB somehow related to culture. For a moment I thought about something crazy like "+1 XP for every 20% of culture rate". Or maybe the UB gives land units the Leadership promotion instead of the XP bonus.

XP that can be varied turn by turn is actually a really bad idea, because what you do is spend one turn finishing a unit in every city to try and get the maximum XP for minimum cost. It adds to micro: this is actually the reason why great general points were not implemented into the original GP system: if the specialist gave XP, then it would only be used on the turn that the unit was produced as there was no way to track it without massive changes to the save game construction (paraphrasing a dev in the beta there).

Leadership promotion is actually quite a lot of power. It's one idea I toyed with for the Research Institute, but I came to the conclusion that leadership on every unit is fucking bonkers once you get rolling.

I agree with you. That's why I said it's a crazy idea.

Move onto Maya: We have the Zulu to compare the Holkan to, and the Odeon to compare the Ball Court to.

Maya: Mysticism/Mining. UB: Colosseum replacement: Ball Court. +4 Happiness. UU: Spear replacement. Holkan. Strength 5.

Shoot me. What is better: an axe that negates the chariot disadvantage, or a strength 5 spear? You decide, because what I've done is take the Vanilla civ 4 Greek UU and given it to Maya here. Personally, I don't care if Greece has the reimagined Phalanx as above, or Maya has it. Out of Greece, Maya and Zulu, are there any civs that stand out as too good or too bad? Because a 4 happy building is good for any player, and a 4 happy building that costs 40 hammers when you already have +2 happy allows size 10 cities, essentially unrestrained growth.

I'm fine 5 strength spears. What about removing the UB's trait modifier again and replace it with a stone multiplier for example? Just to add a little bit of flavor.
I would say that the gap between Greece, Maya and Zulu is a lot smaller then before, so I'm fine with the proposed changes.

[Krill]

Removing the trait modifier only really matters to UB that replace core buildings. The Colosseum is niche and designed specifically to meet a need for CHM and fit the theme of happiness not being the constraining factor in growth. I think it is a necessary evil for the granaries and barracks of the world, to stop the relevant traits breaking the UBs. If they are left in, then we have to balance the UB for both with the synergistic trait and without, and, frankly, we are not able to do that.

Removing the CHM bonus from the Ball Court doesn't really solve this problem, because I'm not sure it even exists. The ability to grow a city to size 8 regardless of happy resources, or size 10? Well, that player should still be able the scavenge 2 happy resources, get religion or trade for more, so I don't see the extra 2 happy as a concern. Adding a resource modifier though is not just a flavour decision, it gives players access to a stupidly efficient happy resource. 1 happy per 20 hammers is great for the occasional city, but 1 happy per 10 hammers is...better than HR warriors with no unit costs! The reason Zulu get it is because the Ikhanda at 60 hammers does fit any real role as a UB but linking the production modifier to iron keeps Zulu away from HBR!