At this point in time, we really don't have a lot of base production-even with growth on to mines, which means we don't work as many cottages, forges will take quite a while to pay back. Currency's benefits are immediate, and on this map, expansion will soon be limited more by commerce than production, no? Metal casting is still a reasonable tech to grab, imo, since we are definitely goi g to want it down the line anyways, but I am starting to think that curren y would be better to grab now.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(October 20th, 2012, 10:47)Merovech Wrote: At this point in time, we really don't have a lot of base production-even with growth on to mines, which means we don't work as many cottages, forges will take quite a while to pay back. Currency's benefits are immediate, and on this map, expansion will soon be limited more by commerce than production, no? Metal casting is still a reasonable tech to grab, imo, since we are definitely goi g to want it down the line anyways, but I am starting to think that curren y would be better to grab now.
I think a consensus is forming that Currency > MC, but only if we can tech there in time. This, to me, is the question, so we should get some data on this from our sandbox efforts. In theory, I agree we get an earlier benefit from Currency. However, I am less than certain we can tech there in time.
Can we get an updated sandbox up once we land (fingers crossed) the 'Henge? Thanks goes out to whoever can do that.
Forges don't need base production to work. They work just as fine if you're whipping. The problem with forges is not that they're ineffective, but that they're very expensive.
(October 20th, 2012, 13:55)NobleHelium Wrote: Forges don't need base production to work. They work just as fine if you're whipping. The problem with forges is not that they're ineffective, but that they're very expensive.
Yes, sorry I counted that in my thoughts but not my post. It will take 480 base hammers that get the bonus to pay back the cost of a forge. Lets say that we whip the city we built the forge in 6 times over the next 60 turns, which seems on the high end to me, but is certainly possible. That gives us 180 hammers, leaving 300 left. Actually, at this point, becuase of rounding (I'm assuming that with the whips there will be enough base production to ignore the rounding down on the 29th and 30th hammers), it's probably better to think of bonus hammers: we have made 45 bonus hammers, leaving us with 75 hammers still to make up. It seems reasonable to me that we would get those hammers as bonuses off 60 turns normal production at MM and maybe also AO, but ~60 turns after the construction of the forge is still a very long payback time. Of course, this ignores the extra happiness and the Colussus and is very vague, mostly because I am on my phone, but I think the math is fairly reasonable.
In short...I (think I) agree with you. They are too expensive right now.
Edit: I think they become worthwhile builds once we slow horizontal expansion or our happy cap becomes restricted in multiple cities with good tiles/specialists spots onto which we want to grow.
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
We interrupt the endless Oracle discussions to play an actual turn.
This is the turn that we had to whip Mansa's Muse as part of our Stonehenge play. Two pop were sacrificed to the Egyptian gods, resulting in 64/35 production on the spear. We will make a further 5 production this turn, and overflow 34 total production (69/35) into Stonehenge. Along with three forest chops, the wonder will finish on T55. It would be pretty funny/tragic if another team completed the wonder just as we were dropping in our whip and chop production, but at least then the fail gold would speed us along to a better Oracle target. We shall see.
The first three workers are all on their second turn of Stonehenge chopping. The new fourth worker had no instructions listed; I moved him onto the corn tile and put one turn into roading it. That guy can finish the road next turn, or move onto one of the two forest tiles to start roading. I think the micro works better for him to move onto a forest tile, since Worker C (on the plains forest hill) can move over to the west, putting one turn into a road each turn, and finish the corn road on T57. Feel free to advise.
What do we want to do with this spearman completing next turn? We could have it hang around as a "real" defender against barbs, or keep the Focal Point axe around for that purpose and send the spear out scouting. Does anyone know when barb axes start to appear? I'm somewhat tempted to send the spear straight northeast and go find We Play Civ's borders. Thoughts?
I have of course canceled all chop/road orders after taking this screenshot so we can do whatever we want with the workers at the start of next turn.
Demos are down slightly after losing two pop at Mansa's Muse. No other score changes mid-turn so far.
(October 20th, 2012, 01:58)NobleHelium Wrote: Looked more closely at the microplan...I think we should either move 2NW with the worker out of AO now, or finish roading the corn completely before moving onto the forested hill. The former lets us road the forested hill sooner while there are still no enemy units visible, and the latter lets us wait until a warrior arrives to provide some semblance of cover.
I assumed finishing one or more cottages in the MM/FP area would be a better use of the plains hill worker.
(October 20th, 2012, 15:02)Sullla Wrote: We interrupt the endless Oracle discussions to play an actual turn.
Now, that is a novel way of solving our discussion about what to get with the Oracle. We simply discuss which tech to get long enough that some other team builds it!
Furthermore, I consider that forum views should be fluid in width
Are we still planning on finishing fishing (say that quickly) a few turns before we really need it? I would prefer to not finishing until the last minute and thus not bounce our score up higher than it needs to be.
Note I am not talking about playing games with GNP (you can't) - I am talking about score management.
I have finally decided to put down some cash and register a website. It is www.ruffhi.com. Now I remain free to move the hosting options without having to change the name of the site.
(October 22nd, 2014, 10:52)Caledorn Wrote: And ruff is officially banned from playing in my games as a reward for ruining my big surprise by posting silly and correct theories in the PB18 tech thread.
(October 20th, 2012, 15:53)Ruff_Hi Wrote: Are we still planning on finishing fishing (say that quickly) a few turns before we really need it? I would prefer to not finishing until the last minute and thus not bounce our score up higher than it needs to be.
I think we will do a 3-pop-whip of the settler next turn. Would that suffice?
Furthermore, I consider that forum views should be fluid in width
No, the micro plan says we're whipping on t56. I assume that will be a 2-pop whip.
Finishing Fishing is fine because we might want Priesthood sooner rather than later. I don't think there is any merit to delaying score increases, I wanted to delay getting techs to potentially get more beakers and give fewer beakers to opponents.
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