[PB70] Lurking under the tables

[Tarkeel]

Yeah, what I am very, very confused about is SD's role in this. Even if I think Mjmd's backstab makes sense (and is a feels-bad but also-kinda-the-point-of-diplo move), I have no idea what SD gets out of helping number 1 kill number 2.

I was looking thinking similarly, but I think SD's plan is to foment a forever-war between those two so he can sneak in a win. Which he might actually get.. Extract from the Scooter-SD Diplo:

scooter: hey how would you like to win the game
Superdeath: (Hmmm meme)
scooter: if you glance at pbspy you'll understand that I'll spend the remainder of this game attempting to ruin Mjmd in whatever way possible. would be happy for you to benefit

[naufragar]

If you allow for diplomacy, you also allow for backstabs as the deals are non-binding (I would never play a diplo game though, so perhaps my opinion is void).

I agree with Miguelito and Amica, although I too would never play a diplo game. Maybe that's a theme? You expect players in a diplo game to lie to you. Just the nature of it. But the convention was that, whatever deception players got up to, NAPs were iron-clad. That was a practical thing: you could build trust among inherently untrustworthy actors because the convention would hold. "Well, I don't trust Player A or Player B but at least Player A and I have an NAP. Guess we can work together against Player B." But if A's promises are just words, of course you try to build a relationship with B. Not an ethical thing. Purely practical. But if we never play another diplo game, Mjmd doesn't have to worry about his rep.

Comm, refresh my memory, didn't Mack win a diplo game with a particularly brutal NAP-stab?

[Commodore]

If you allow for diplomacy, you also allow for backstabs as the deals are non-binding (I would never play a diplo game though, so perhaps my opinion is void).

But if we never play another diplo game, Mjmd doesn't have to worry about his rep.

Comm, refresh my memory, didn't Mack win a diplo game with a particularly brutal NAP-stab?

If MJMD the NAP-Stabber ever plays any game again, he doesn't have to worry about his rep. Fish-for-Fish? Worthless. He's going to forever wear the reputation as having completely and utterly worthless word, honorless and shifty. Might as well change his name officially to "Backstab MJMD" because nobody will ever trust him ever again.

Mackoti won PBEM 24 via NAP-stab against me when he ran the numbers and realized I was on track for the fastest Culture Victory in RB record.

[mackoti]

Back then my english was weaker and i didnt care that much  and i couldnt defend myself(is not good now either). But dont belive evrithing what is said around here, Comm broke the Nap, didnt respected one of the clauses.

And my report on NAPs break is spotles I didnt break any diplo Nap or even the ones with AI diplo. I remeber a special one were scooter was under atack o lewwyn and I could have won the game right there but  had a 40 for 40 turns AI  diplo..

[greenline]

Scummy as the backstab was, I always got the impression mmjd was a shifty civ character just from how his neighbors consistently described him, even in AI diplo. The guy who pillages neutral improvements while asking for wines is the guy you always keep an eye on

[Qgqqqqq]

Tell me if I should delete that rant, and I will.

[Mousey]

Mjmd really digging the hole deeper by posting a bunch of chat logs that again fail to show any "duress," just Scooter's complete honesty about his military position and willingness to avoid a conflict.

• Mjmd knew the exact turn when Scooter could start building galleons (after their previous NAP).
  
• Mjmd knew exactly when he could have his own out to counter.
  
• Scooter gave up any chance of surprise or hidden intent by even making the offer.
  

Again raising the question; why didn't Mjmd just say no? For that matter, his attempts at negotiation were weak too. If he was taking it as a "threat" why didn't he just point out he could have his own galleons so quickly when he made his counter-offers and make the bargaining position more even?

It seems more and more like that he found Scooter offering a (slightly!) disadvantageous deal so insulting that he had to take the most punishing path possible and is now trying to justify it retroactively.



And topping it off by comparing himself to a colonized/oppressed indigenous society despite being the clear front-runner? And the clear front-runner organizing a dogpile on top of that. Talk about poor taste...

[Tarkeel]

Tell me if I should delete that rant, and I will.

No I think that was perfectly in line. As you said, there are limits to what you can talk about as a global lurker.

Bringing US contract law into it is pretty fun though, on an international forum. Contract law has a tendency to work differently in Europe...

[Krill]

Tell me if I should delete that rant, and I will.

No, that post will need to be quoted in the future because it will apply to all future diplo games. +1 to the "Fuck diplo" crowd though.

Agree with Tarkeel, there is a difference between making a deal with intent to never honour it and backing out of a deal after a period of time. For example, just how long does Fish-Fish last, and what are the terms? Etc.

[Qgqqqqq]

NZ contract law

Also, I genuinely dislike fish for fish. I don't think it should mean as much as its taken to mean here. But that's a big difference from a NAP.

BTW, if anyone wants to, the discord server link is in the tech thread. I read the entire recent history today, though I don't normally follow it.