[NO PLAYERS] Seeding and ranking discussion

[Commodore]

Hey lurkers - how is that map coming along?

Pretty good; got the bulk of it done. The fiddly bits are somehow combining player rankings with start rankings with neighbor ratings with combo (option) ratings.

Neighbours are the thing that makes it really hard...

I have a suggestion. As I understand we are gonna get a choice of a few combos. If you give those out first, and let us choose then it might be easier to match us to starts as you can then weight what we have chosen, and have less variables to manage.

Then if neighbours are a big factor you can edit the land a tad to make it more lush if they have a difficult neighbour or less lush for that neighbour?

Oh my dear boy. Neighbors alas aren't the *last* consideration; they are indeed the first. To pick, say, a crazy random example, I would always prefer to neighbor three newbies in a craptacular tundra waste start rather than have a lush and lovely start in between, say, Plako and Dtay...

[Commodore]

I don't see how it can change things. All combos a player will be given are supposed to be roughly equal in strength.

O RLY?
[checks]
Okay, looks like the list is going to be largely randomized then. Although I'm still going to flatly reject an all-duds draw for Wannabe or OP-mess for Old Harry...

Then, randomizing with Bing because Random.org is down:

Frederick Egyptian
Hammurabi Persian
Zara Yaqob Spanish
Napoleon Native American
Alexander Carthaginian
Stalin Mongolian
Charlemagne English
Boudica Zulu
Kublai Khan Greek
Pericles Portuguese
Justinian I Japanese
Ramesses II Khmer
Gilgamesh Aztec
Elizabeth Arabian
Qin Shi Huang Mali
Isabella Sumerian
Huayna Capac Russian
Cyrus Indian
Mansa Musa Babylonian
Julius Caesar Viking
Darius I Ottoman
Victoria French
Wang Kon German
Lincoln Ethiopia
Gandhi Korean
Roosevelt Roman
Catherine Byzantine
Shaka Celtic
Hatshepsut Incan
Louis XIV Dutch

Then I guess I'll post this, although they can't pick until the map stuff gets settled more:

Old Harry

Frederick Egyptian
Hammurabi Persian
Zara Yaqob Spanish

Gavagai

Napoleon Native American
Alexander Carthaginian
Stalin Mongolian

2metra+OT4E

Charlemagne English
Boudica Zulu
Kublai Khan Greek

REM

Pericles Portuguese
Justinian I Japanese
Ramesses II Khmer

Alhazard

Gilgamesh Aztec
Elizabeth Arabian
Qin Shi Huang Mali

ipecac

Isabella Sumerian
Huayna Capac Russian
Cyrus Indian

Greywolf

Mansa Musa Babylonian
Julius Caesar Viking
Darius I Ottoman

TheWannabe

Victoria French
Wang Kon German
Lincoln Ethiopia

Dantski + V8mark

Roosevelt Roman
Catherine Byzantine
Shaka Celtic

Molach

Shaka Celtic
Hatshepsut Incan
Louis XIV Dutch

That...actually didn't work out all that badly.

[Commodore]

Not a real choice in half the cases, but no newbies got skunked and OH didn't get India, so I think we'll let it lie.

[Mardoc]

Um, are you interpreting Gavagai's comment as each player should have three equal options, or each player should have equal choices to each other player? I thought he was saying the first, but you're acting as though it was the second.

[Commodore]

Mostly, just that no balancing considerations are in the selection of combos (that's not one of the levers to be used). Beyond that, looks like they just want randomized.

[Bacchus]

I'm pretty sure you are misinterpreting, Commodore, but I sent Gav a message to check.

Regarding the new set-up, I would swap Molach and Greywolf, I think the large island position is stronger and more easily playable, even with Gavagai nearby -- as Gavagai will be very busy with OH. This applies even more after REM is brought into the centre, I think at this point Molach's start becomes strategically stellar.

Islands to the east of TW still need to be brought 2 tiles south, I think.


Frankly I don't think Gav-OH-2mn continent can be made to work, the disparity in geography is too great. Also, Gav and OH will probably expect to border each other, it's more fun to try and mess with them by having weaker, but agressive players like REM and 2mn next to them, plus weaker starts. But I'm not yet sure what the alternative suggestion would be (something like Gav in the centre of the big continent, REM to his south-east, Molach to his north-east, OH in Gav's current spot, 2mn in OH's current spot, ipecac in 2mn's current spot, Dantski in ipecac's current spot, Alhaz in Molach's current spot, Greywolf in REM's spot)

[Bacchus]

Yep, Gav confirmed that he meant that the set of three combos should be even in strength, not that sets should be even between themselves.

[Bacchus]

On the map (with starts as signed on it):

Alhazard's horse has no viable food source, only the pig that will be shared with the second city or a second-ring crab....

Can't see Greywolf's horse

The Wannabe's copper is inaccessible without a galley and is generally in a strange spot. It's also not really relevant for him, though.

Is OH's start freshwater? Can't see off the picture.

[Bacchus]

Just saw that Comm went ahead and posted "picks" in each thread — just an hour after coming to a unilateral conclusion that this is what the players want, even if it goes against everything said up to date. What the hell?

[Commodore]

- a. leader/civ pick style Snake 2 (OH, Dantski) Lurkers select 3 6 (Molach, Gavagai, Alhazard, Ipecac, REM)
- b1. Lushness of capital (yes/no) Yes 7 no 1 (2metra)
- b2. Nearby luxuries (yes/no) Yes 8
- b3. Space (yes/no) Yes 8
- b4. Neighbours (yes/no) Yes 8
- b5. Different difficulties (yes/no) No 4
- c. Events (off/on) Off 5 on 2 (Gavagai, 2metra)
- d. Huts (off/on) Off 6 on 1 (Gavagai)
- e. Speed (normal/fast) Normal 3 (OH, Gavagai, REM), quick 2 (Alhazard, 2metra)
- f. Difficulty (mapmaker's decision/prince/monarch/emperor) Mapmaker 5 Emperor 1 (2metra)
- h. See starts before picking (yes/no) Yes 4 (OH, Gavagai, Alhazard), no 3 (Dantski, Ipecac, REM)
- i. Version (BTS/RTR 2.7.x/RTR 3.0.x/TOW) BTS wins for compatibility. BTS 6
- j. Scout start (yes/no) Yes 6
- k. Bans: Nukes, War Elephants (except Khmer), Corps, SoZ, Blockades, Diplo Victory (accept/reject) corps banned 2 (Dantski, Ipecac), corps not banned 2 (Gavagai, Alhazard) SoZ banned 3 (OH, Gavagai, Ipecac) SoZ unbanned 1 (Alhazard) all other bans 4 no bans 2 (REM, 2metra) (I think this means they're all banned except Corps)
- l. Great Lighthouse (mapmaker's decision/on/off) Mapmaker 3 (OH, Alhazard, REM), NO! DEFY RESOLUTION! 1 (Ipecac) on 1 (2metra) (Lets hope the mapmaker agrees with Ipecac...)
- m. Espionage (off/on but no spies - settle or start golden age with a Great Spy if you get one/on but no missions/on) on but no spies 4 (OH, Dantski, Alhazard, Ipecac), Full 3 (Gavagai, REM)

So TheWanabe you need to decide on:
- g. Barbs (off/on/raging) On 3 (OH, Gavagai, 2metra), off 3 (Alhazard, Ipecac, REM)

Anyone wants to check my working that'd be nice.

Commence mapmaking!

Ohhhh. My interpretation was that meant that (a) was just the randomized picks, not a lever for balancing (b). But that could also be seen as just a different place to list a fifth method for balancing. Well crap.

The echo-chamber lack of input got annoying, definitely, but that was an incorrect interpretation, and for that I apologize. Someone want a deadline on this sucker, by the way?