Singaboy and Sullla's team thread

[pindicator]

I really like this thread in civfanatics about the state of units: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/t...ch.632252/

It has me thinking that the unit cost is less the problem and awful production scaling is more to blame.

[Singaboy]

Pretty much so. They nerfed IZ and got nothing to compensate for it. The problem I have with this. Cities ensure that you get enough science and culture as well as gold but there is no production equivalent.
In this game, this means that I can form armies but I have no units to fill them with. And with a knight army costing 690 gold to be upgraded to a tank army, there is only so much one can do as well. This is plain unfun

[Modo]

China's faith will let me draft a tank every 8 turns though
This means in 4 turns, I could have another tank.

Don't want to be mean but that would be a nasty post in the general thread "hey guys, you know I can faith buy a tank every 8 turns while you're chopping tree stumps?"
I guess they intended the production dropout in late game to be compensated by faith and gold buys with "discounts" but yeah...

[T-hawk]

It has me thinking that the unit cost is less the problem and awful production scaling is more to blame.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Civ 5 ultimately kept its 1UPT implementation balanced in the long run by keeping the production modifiers low. Civ 6 breaks it with too many multipliers in the government policies and chop/harvest scaling, which even interact multiplicatively. Professional Army policy looks like a convenience but it's actually enormous: it's a +100% multiplier (1/2 cost is 2/1 yield) that works ahead of time even before you get a unit tech as soon as you are prebuilding units and saving gold.

The graphs in that first post are meaningless going by the unit's stated cost. They need to consider what you actually pay in terms of all those multipliers and discounts, since you always have the best ones active whenever you are building or upgrading units. When everything is highly multiplied, then nothing is, because that's really the baseline.

I see the problematic feedback loop in the design: unit production is too easily boosted, which meant too many old ones hanging around, which meant upgrades needed to be cheaper, which means you build even more boosted units for upgrading.

[Singaboy]

T159:
Well, Germany succeeded with its spy but I'd say the benefit is pretty insignificant. All that effort for a mere 216 gold? Roma is not a city with a lot of gold. If on the other hand, China succeeds with those 700 gold, now that is something bigger.

Anyway, with that mission over, the gpt seems to have increased. Of course, it will drop when Lisbon is taken. I am a little surprised how much health is left in Lisbon. The longer the German navy is caught up there, the better. Will give China the chance for a more decisive first strike.

Mobilization is down to 2 turn as the Inspiration was moved over by China. banking is due next turn and then journey to radio will continue. I think, culture progress can actually slow down a little as there is not much to vie for currently. I guess with mobilization, Meritocracy can be removed for more gold generating stuff.




I move the navy towards Siena. The navy will get there on T161 not able to make any impact. However, with the English navy being slowly moving forward, it might end up with a big clash of another naval battle later on with Germany siding England. England is pretty much broke and can't just upgrade their navy. In two turns, I will have two privateer armadas between Siena and Venezia. As long as the navy is between Siena, Ferrara and Venezia, Rome should be safe.



Next thing I do is use that archeologist. Never done this before, anyway I dig up something and it gives 3 culture. Better than nothing. It seems I am able to add two more of those artifacts for 6 culture. Not too bad.

On the the coming siege of Leyte. My tanks are not attacking yet, as I am waiting for the battering ram (yeah, battering rams with tanks, makes perfect sense) to hit Leyte next turn. One tank attacks the knight almost defeating it at 98/100. The real killer here is the plundering of not one, but two trade routes. This is simply awesome as this nets Rome 100+200 gold. A single plunder giving more than this spy mission? Crazy stuff as usual. The balance is out of whack.

Rome ends up with 493 gold of which 450 is being transferred to China so that it can upgrade more stuff. China will have around 600 gold next turn.

[timmy827]

It has me thinking that the unit cost is less the problem and awful production scaling is more to blame.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.  Civ 5 ultimately kept its 1UPT implementation balanced in the long run by keeping the production modifiers low.  Civ 6 breaks it with too many multipliers in the government policies and chop/harvest scaling, which even interact multiplicatively.  Professional Army policy looks like a convenience but it's actually enormous: it's a +100% multiplier (1/2 cost is 2/1 yield) that works ahead of time even before you get a unit tech as soon as you are prebuilding units and saving gold.

The graphs in that first post are meaningless going by the unit's stated cost.  They need to consider what you actually pay in terms of all those multipliers and discounts, since you always have the best ones active whenever you are building or upgrading units.  When everything is highly multiplied, then nothing is, because that's really the baseline.

I see the problematic feedback loop in the design: unit production is too easily boosted, which meant too many old ones hanging around, which meant upgrades needed to be cheaper, which means you build even more boosted units for upgrading.

It also seems that you can hit a wall in the modern era where the multipliers appear to run out once done upgrading - you get tech for tanks ahead of the modern-era +50% cav card, tech for battleships and subs well ahead of the modern-era +100% ships card, etc.  Your empires are built for science more than culture (just looking at # campus districts vs theaters) but it seems that balance worked pretty well until now for keeping the bonus cards lined up with units of the right era.  It might seem especially acute in this game as you didn't have a war with major casualties you'd want to replace on your side until the modern era.

[suboptimal]

It also seems that you can hit a wall in the modern era where the multipliers appear to run out once done upgrading - you get tech for tanks ahead of the modern-era +50% cav card, tech for battleships and subs well ahead of the modern-era +100% ships card, etc.  Your empires are built for science more than culture (just looking at # campus districts vs theaters) but it seems that balance worked pretty well until now for keeping the bonus cards lined up with units of the right era.  It might seem especially acute in this game as you didn't have a war with major casualties you'd want to replace on your side until the modern era.

The way the trees have been set up I am inclined to think that the developers thought/intended that culture development would be prioritized to bring it in line with scientific development given the disparity in the raw population values and availability of a culture-generating improvement from Turn 1.  In addition to the policies being far behind the units there are also the boosts where the tech and civic research doesn't always line up the way the game is currently played (Stirrups needing Feudalism, Games & Rec needing Construction).

[Japper007]

It also seems that you can hit a wall in the modern era where the multipliers appear to run out once done upgrading - you get tech for tanks ahead of the modern-era +50% cav card, tech for battleships and subs well ahead of the modern-era +100% ships card, etc.  Your empires are built for science more than culture (just looking at # campus districts vs theaters) but it seems that balance worked pretty well until now for keeping the bonus cards lined up with units of the right era.  It might seem especially acute in this game as you didn't have a war with major casualties you'd want to replace on your side until the modern era.

The way the trees have been set up I am inclined to think that the developers thought/intended that culture development would be prioritized to bring it in line with scientific development given the disparity in the raw population values and availability of a culture-generating improvement from Turn 1.  In addition to the policies being far behind the units there are also the boosts where the tech and civic research doesn't always line up the way the game is currently played (Stirrups needing Feudalism, Games & Rec needing Construction).

I think, looking at the dev diaries at least, that the intention was to have the player chase adjacency way more than we actually do in these games, thus you are not expected to have a Campus in every city but only where there are lots of mountains/rainforest. This would also lead to more Theatre Squares, as their adjacency is simply nearby districts and wonders and therefore fit in nicely in your core.

The problem is that the actual game doesn't back this up, with one or two buildings easely beating out the adjacency bonus practically all the time. How often do you even see a +4 Campus? Well that is exactly what a University yields in any city.

This problem also causes a host of others, because science is so abundant:

-production fails to keep up at all with what you can build. I think we'd see a lot more Industrial Zones if you could actually build one before the game is over.
-beyond choppables, the terrain really doesn't matter, if you can chop in a Campus and a few buildings and/or units you're gold, even if the city is nothing but a barren wasteland afterwards.

Buildings should really scale of off something, why does a Campus city in the middle of the desert output the same amount as an awesome riverside capital with 20+ pop and full improvements? I'd suggest population like in civ 5, which would also solve the issue of pop not mattering beyond district unlocks.

[pindicator]

Well, pop does give culture and science ... but I think you're advocating for more percentage boosts in buildings instead of flat boosts

[Modo]

T159:
Well, Germany succeeded with its spy but I'd say the benefit is pretty insignificant. All that effort for a mere 216 gold? Roma is not a city with a lot of gold. If on the other hand, China succeeds with those 700 gold, now that is something bigger.

Maybe the late game will feature spy gold steals battling each other like religion wars were fought a few patches ago just to maintain the status quo, another Red Queen mechanic. You steal money from me but I steal my money back from you, ha ha...ha.
At least trade route plundering requires military superiority.