@kalin: would you mind removing the last clause (the bit after the comma) in the first sentence of your last post?
#deleted#
Thanks, kalin!
#deleted#
Thanks, kalin!
|
RB PBEM #1 - Discussion Thread - No Players!
|
 ZPVCSPLFUIFDPEF Wrote:@kalin: would you mind removing the last clause (the bit after the comma) in the first sentence of your last post? I removed the part you asked just in case, although I am not sure I understand why you wanted that removed. The quote from Sullla was available to all non-PBEM players and only refers to the PBEM game. EDIT: I removed the whole post. I see your point and will not share that specific info. Thanks. Kalin sunrise089 Wrote:I thought it might be fun for us lurkers to have our own thread to discuss the ongoing PBEM game. That way we can share our comments on strategies without having to be paranoid about spoilers. I certainly don't understand why you would have to edit out spoilers  .Darrell darrelljs Wrote:I certainly don't understand why you would have to edit out spoilers The spoiler was about the Pitboss game not the PBEM one, sorry. I thought about it and I think it was a mild spoiler, and I also don't want to draw attention to that fact. Kalin 
Okay, I really wanted to post this in Dreylin's thread, but there's so much in it, I think I'd better check with the rest of the lurkers first to make sure it doesn't include unintentional spoilers ... and to make sure you won't all hate me for suggesting such a thing! Note that I really don't know what's up in the unexplored-by-Dreylin parts of M_H's territory, and don't know on the basis of anything in M_H's thread whether Dreylin's (and my for purposes of this post) assumptions about him are true. So ... is it safe to post this thing?
Dreylin Wrote:I wonder if I'm not really cut out for the cutthroat world of MP CivDoes it have to be such a cut-throat game though? You noted not very long ago that in spite of his large tracts of land, M_H has room for only ~8 cities (I've no idea if this is true one way or the other - I see a bunch of fog on your map of the northwest yet, and I'm no good at evaluating the value of land anyway - but I'm assuming it for sake of argument) whereas you'll have ~12, plus a couple of fillers. So though you may not have realized it at the time, Bursa now looks like it was a "Santa Rosa" location, likely cutting M_H off from any realistic chance of peaceful victory. In his situation as you now see it, how would you have responded? It could be, honestly, that he doesn't regard you as an enemy; if he's mentioned his plans for future relations with you in his thread one way or the other ... I certainly wouldn't provide that information to you! But since it seems to be your opinion that he's planning to come after you with super-pikes, it seems like there are two options before you: 1) Deal with the situation as it stands (not necessarily a bad idea; not long ago, you were convinced you could handle any attack from M_H without trouble, thanks to your superior infrastructure, and I can imagine that a version of this might still be true) ... or 2) find a way to make it less of a cut-throat situation. Now, feel free to ignore the following, of course. Bear in mind, for instance, that these ideas are based only on stuff I've read in your thread; I honestly have no idea how M_H would actually react, nor of whether the assumptions on which I'm basing all of this are true. Nevertheless, I like working this sort of thing out, so: If you don't like the war route, do you think it's possible to get M_H back on side by basically recognizing, "Wow, I didn't realize how bad your land was up there; I see now why Bursa was so important to you"? Then you can propose a way to mend fences, for instance: M_H offers: 1. Metal Casting 2. Long-term NAP 3. Tech coordination agreement (basically, agree to talk and plan tech exchanges in advance) 4. (possibly gold and/or units; see below) You offer: 1. The city of Bursa(!!!) 2. Long-term NAP 3. Tech coordination agreement 4. (If MC is not considered equal payment for Bursa, then perhaps gold or something, or Civil Service with M_H providing his item 4; see below) This idea is predicated on the important assumption that M_H will deal squarely with you - no breach of NAP, no tech boycott, etc. It is also based on an awareness of the fact that Bursa cost you a fair amount: A settler, a couple of turns of development for Konya, worker actions to hook up the site, etc. M_H likewise benefits if he gets the city (over having to settle it himself) to the tune of a settler, its current tile improvements, and however many turns of growth and infrastructure you've put into it. Thus, he would need to compensate you for the city as it stands even if the location was regarded as "his". One way to handle this is to say, "Give me MC and we'll call it even." (Or you could offer or request other things as well to make it even, if you think it's not.) You might instead make MC for CS part of the deal (or skip getting MC from him altogether, but this sounds bad to me) and agree to some other price to compensate for Bursa's development. Say, a settler and/or a worker and/or some amount of gold, each to be delivered within specified timeframes. Now, I don't know if he would accept any form of this deal - or at least any form of this deal that you'd also accept - and the deal is clearly worse than worthless if he'll break the NAP or the tech coordination agreement. Giving up a strategic location for a peace & friendship agreement with someone who's not trustworthy would be suicidally foolish. But if you can trust him, and if you'd both agree ... then the other lurkers might be furious with me for helping to reduce tensions in the game. Hmmmmm. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything.
Doesn't seem too spoilerish to me, but is it a good idea at all?
If M_H comes at Deylin alone then M_H will get smashed. Unless Dreylin is totally clueless, he can sit in his 1-city front, protected by a culture bomb if he wants to, and will totally win in the long term due to more and better cities. Maybe a M_H + Athlete coalition would work, but then the proposed agreement wouldn't even be signed. But anyways, those are just the thoughts of a player who is not that good. I think the idea is at least OK to post, though Sullla and T-Hawk are the authorities on spoilers. sunrise089 Wrote:Doesn't seem too spoilerish to me, but is it a good idea at all?Definitely not if it's just for a NAP - with an artist-bombed border, I imagine Cats + Anything will be sufficient answer to M_H's UU; certainly long enough for Gunpowder to come along on Quick. I don't know whether Dreylin fully appreciates the amount of time it'll take M_H to assemble an army from nothing and march it all the way to Bursa, but I think his main worry is that he'll get left behind by a tech trade embargo, which is why the goal of this deal would be not just peace but friendship, including a tech cooperation pact. For my part, I was just intrigued by the idea and wondered whether it would work. [EDIT: And in light of this: Dreylin Wrote:Well I'm certainly not intending to ask for advice; really my intention is to just document my thought process and the developing situation. I must admit I wondered about kalin's last e-mail and whether it was stepping over the line from observational comments into planning - which is why I didn't really reply, but I leave the lurker community to police themselves.I will not be posting the plan/suggestion/whatever in Dreylin's thread regardless, as it seems clear he doesn't want those sorts of suggestions. I still think such a deal would be a neat thing to try, if only to see how it works, but maybe that's just the Pacifistic Technologist in me talking.] Athelete Wrote:Hey Dreylin, OK, I'm going to comment on this because what Athelete is thinking of doing is a stupid mistake that I think everyone commits at somepoint or another. He just offered to to take a weakened city on Dreylins border', keep it and shove a cultural influence into Dreylins' flank, for an NAP that Dreylin doesn't need (and actually weakens Dreylins position because he doesn't have the flexibility to attack Athlete who is possibly lining up opposite him, and is hence an enemy). AND Athlete doesn't even offer a tech trade! Athlete just offered absolutely nothing to Dreylin in exchange for stuff that offering an ally would be difficult, and he doesn't have a massive military to go back up the city he wants to capture. But that's not the mistake I'm talking about. The mistake is that he is basically about to come out and tell Dreylin that he is sailing under sooooos' colours. I hope Dreylin decides to do the smart thing, and goes to war asap with mh and Athlete; he has an advantage now, and he should cram it down his enemies throat.
I concur Krill, and I had nearly the same thoughts on reading that message today. If I were athlete and I wanted to capture that barb city, I would consider offering the NAP - but certainly say nothing about the barb city! Far better to negotiate an NAP, then grab the barb city in what is effectively enemy territory, and present your neighbor with a fait accompli, right? And that last paragraph is definitely on the clumsy side, acknowledging a tech embargo against Dreylin. Whoops.
The fun thing is that we get to sit on the sidelines and watch what happens. I've enjoyed this game thus far, and it will get even more interesting when someone finally goes to war! In fact, it's almost as entertaining as watching your SANCTA/Kaz war. 
|
