Dare you enter the Whizzard's Realm? Magic and Mysteries abide.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Agree that's a good location for a 3rd city site: grabs a ton of power resources.

I'll do some light simming tonight (~3 hours from now), to work out the best way to move our 2 southern workers. I think the priority is to let Baraddur work deer and rice to free up the pigs for the capital, so it can work max food so we can 3-pop whip our next 2 settlers asap.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

I think if they move up and finish the part done cottage and the part done pasture this and next turn that will be best, as we need a third tile for the cap next turn anyway, and possibly a 4th either next turn or the turn after this.

I would say getting cottages going might be better as that rice is only 4/0/0 until we irrigate it which is more worker turns.


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[Nicolae Carpathia]

Well, irrigation is only 3 worker turns on the tile 3 of Baraddur, and it's also a tile for the cap to grow (and whip) on. Plus, we have he oasis that is workable.

I'm thinking we that the 2 workers work their ways northeast, filling in cottage, pasture, farm, and rice farm. That will be the basis by which I'll play with the sims.

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Some casual simming says there's nothing wrong with working northeast towards the pasture. The issue is, what comes next? I'm thinking of stagnating Baraddur at size 3 or 4, to pump out workers. Our cities grow far too fast right now. That way, Baraddur works hammer tiles (and the iron minechop will 1-turn at least one worker). Tower can focus on working food tiles until it hits size 6, and indeed, a chop and a high-hammer configuration will allow a 3-pop whip.

Explorer can head southwest to scout out the jungle.

Longbow heads east, looks like there is a ton of land to the east.

The question is, should I push this longbow northeast?

[El Grillo]

We haven't made contact with anyone yet? That's a little odd, so I like the idea of continuing forward. I think getting some maps could be very useful in figuring out the map layout and identifying the key defensive positions.

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Micro plan

t194 Workers AB move NE, 1t farm each, cancel
Worker C move to iron hill
Whizzards tower works corn/whale/cottage
Barabur works pig/deer/horses


t195 Workers AB move NE, 1t farm each, cancel
Worker C mines iron hill
Whizzards tower works corn/whale/cottage
Barabur works pig/deer/horses, built warrior goes to cap, builds another warrior


t196 Workers A finish rice farm
Worker B moves SW finishes grassland farm
Worker C mines iron hill
Whizzards tower works corn/whale/cottage/oasis
Barabur works pig/deer/horses/rice builds settler


t197 Workers A moves 1W to forest
Worker B moves S SE to forest
Worker C mines iron hill
Whizzards tower works corn/whale/cottage/oasis/grass farm
Barabur works pig/deer/horses/rice

t198 Worker A chops
Worker B chops
Worker C mines iron hill
Whizzards tower works corn/whale/cottage/oasis/grass farm, builds settler
Barabur works pig/deer/horses/rice


t199 Worker A chops finish
Worker B chops finish
Worker C mines iron hill finish
Whizzards tower works corn/whale/cottage/oasis/grass farm, builds settler, swaps to scientist
Barabur works pig/deer/horses/rice

t200 whip to completion both settlers, no worker actions planned yet

Note we can switch to slavery t199 rather than 200 (after worker actions) to get back to serfdom sooner - I think this is wise as we can use this time to build roads out to the new cities that don't get speeded in serfdom.

We get 59 overflow in cap, 25 in barabur. IMO in the cap that should either be saved by building wealth to whip again shortly another 6-3 whip, or an instant worker. Probably the worker as we may be pushing the labour limit getting another city

[ReallyEvilMuffin]

Sim from start of 194. All important tiles are correct

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Nicolae Carpathia: just checking, is teching nationalism okay?
Nicolae Carpathia: yoooo
ReallyEvilMuffin: That is the one question I have been pondering a lot actually
ReallyEvilMuffin: I think we should turn off research at least until the library is built
ReallyEvilMuffin: Which then delays any choice too
ReallyEvilMuffin: I'm not 100% sure though
ReallyEvilMuffin: Education has a lot going for it actually
Nicolae Carpathia: agreed
ReallyEvilMuffin: Nationalism is good as there is a chance we pop a further GE pre doing it, and can perhaps slowwalk the Taj, but I think that is very unlikely
Nicolae Carpathia: nat has the benefit of letting us hedge and pop the taj if we miss out on AP
ReallyEvilMuffin: so then it gains us the ability to draft (neligible)
ReallyEvilMuffin: Is on route to constitution (powerful for us in spi) but this is expensive
ReallyEvilMuffin: And curs, but we need gunpowder
ReallyEvilMuffin: priniting press is not best
ReallyEvilMuffin: gunpowder is not needed
Nicolae Carpathia: also we're so far from everyone that rushing isnt the best idea
Nicolae Carpathia: what about the state of the liberalism race?
ReallyEvilMuffin: so really it is a choice of hedging on taj, or pushing edu
ReallyEvilMuffin: exactly
ReallyEvilMuffin: but don't forget that we can also push for economics for the free GM
ReallyEvilMuffin: through edu
ReallyEvilMuffin: and get started on universities
Nicolae Carpathia: hmm, i dont really like saving gold, because our expenses are so low
ReallyEvilMuffin: just until the library is in
Nicolae Carpathia: well alright, that works as well
ReallyEvilMuffin: get the most out of the increase in tech
ReallyEvilMuffin: about 5 turns
Nicolae Carpathia: have you played with the sims? i think we can make baraddur 3-turn workers, and the capital speed towards size 6
ReallyEvilMuffin: I think that with only 2 philo civs either route has a chance for us
ReallyEvilMuffin: Getting the early library in the cap, we can push for running scientists there and getting a couple of scientist bulbs
ReallyEvilMuffin: and we can run pacifism less expensively than suleiman giving us the same GPP bonus...
Nicolae Carpathia: true
ReallyEvilMuffin: I think we have a better chance of lib by the back door than taj
Nicolae Carpathia: ok, so turn off research, and probably go for education
ReallyEvilMuffin: and libbing economics... Free tech and free GM
ReallyEvilMuffin: Sounds very nice
Nicolae Carpathia: still need someone willing to not murder us for the GM lol
Nicolae Carpathia: wait, so does the gscientist bulb education or liberalism itself?
ReallyEvilMuffin: well we will see how far people are away from us
ReallyEvilMuffin: I need to see tech costs in game
ReallyEvilMuffin: hmm
ReallyEvilMuffin: 1801 and 1401
ReallyEvilMuffin: beakers
ReallyEvilMuffin: less than I thought
ReallyEvilMuffin: they are both 1 scientist only really
Nicolae Carpathia: lets see, the gscientist goes into education, and the next tech that can be bulbed is printing press
Nicolae Carpathia: no way to bulb lib itself
ReallyEvilMuffin: I guess the move would be to self tech edu, then bulb lib
ReallyEvilMuffin: no lib has higher priority than printing press surely?
Nicolae Carpathia: nope
ReallyEvilMuffin: ergh
Nicolae Carpathia: so, the great person plan would be: 1st into the AP, 2nd bulbs education, and while we're waiting we save up gold for a charge at lib
ReallyEvilMuffin: yes
ReallyEvilMuffin: and you would want to maximise beakers out of the bulb
Nicolae Carpathia: problem is we'd need to hope for a lucky religion spread into capital
ReallyEvilMuffin: so only self tech around 200 beakers into education
Nicolae Carpathia: we'll need to do some proper calculations for that later
ReallyEvilMuffin: yes
ReallyEvilMuffin: I believe I have worked out the map
ReallyEvilMuffin: based on what what said at the start
ReallyEvilMuffin: I believe 6 identical starting areas
ReallyEvilMuffin: 3 like ours, and 3 inverted because he said 'your starting area will be this or a mirror/rotation of this'
ReallyEvilMuffin: so something like
ReallyEvilMuffin: x x x
ReallyEvilMuffin: x x x
Nicolae Carpathia: that makes sense
ReallyEvilMuffin: ok hard to put into the text, but 3N 3S
ReallyEvilMuffin: likely linked kinda hub areas
ReallyEvilMuffin: with islands between
ReallyEvilMuffin: Those desert spurs seem like natural borders
ReallyEvilMuffin: I can't see how else a 6 person game will balance on cylindrical
Nicolae Carpathia: so this turn: improve pasture, but the question is, what tile for the capital to work?
Nicolae Carpathia: from some simming going max food and working the oasis is best
ReallyEvilMuffin: ignoring the captial, i can chop/whip a settler ready to complete EoT 201?
ReallyEvilMuffin: the library gives us some breathing space as we can run scientists there giving us less of a need of tile improvments
ReallyEvilMuffin: thats going worker wealth 1t settler in barabur
Nicolae Carpathia: i got a settler EoT200
ReallyEvilMuffin: cap or barabur?
Nicolae Carpathia: capital
Nicolae Carpathia: oh, i was thinking of using baraddur as a worker pump, and the capital to whip
ReallyEvilMuffin: hmm
Nicolae Carpathia: then again, new cities already carry half a worker with them
Nicolae Carpathia: in the Ind start game, would you routinely whip new cities?
ReallyEvilMuffin: yeah
ReallyEvilMuffin: size 3
ReallyEvilMuffin: get always 1 worker
ReallyEvilMuffin: often 2
ReallyEvilMuffin: straight away
ReallyEvilMuffin: but I was settling with little worker support, and rep/merc at the start
Nicolae Carpathia: plus the granary part of the food box isnt full and the food tiles arent improved, so working the food tiles immediately in new cities isnt that great
Nicolae Carpathia: ok, so we build at least one worker from baraddur, then set up a chop whip there, and a chop whip in the capital as well
Nicolae Carpathia: cap has a high food surplus and few forests: we do 1 chop, 3 pop; baraddur has lower surplus and more forests, do 2-chops (1 from the iron mine), a 2-pop
Nicolae Carpathia: at least thats what im thinking
ReallyEvilMuffin: where do we settle? north again?
Nicolae Carpathia: we could split the baraddur settler north, the cap settler south
Nicolae Carpathia: ill send you an overview pic that we can use for dotmapping
ReallyEvilMuffin: wait a sec
ReallyEvilMuffin: settler cap and barabur both whipped t200
ReallyEvilMuffin: ready eot201
Nicolae Carpathia: http://imgur.com/43031tF
ReallyEvilMuffin: eot200 sorry
Nicolae Carpathia: so ready to move T201 yup
ReallyEvilMuffin: 2 settlers you got or 1?
Nicolae Carpathia: i havent refined it very much these last few minutes
Nicolae Carpathia: but it sounds like your plan is better than what i had
ReallyEvilMuffin: my plan after the pasture/camp turn gets the rice up and irrgated
ReallyEvilMuffin: the iron starts to mine
ReallyEvilMuffin: then after the farms chops a few forsts
ReallyEvilMuffin: so we use 2 forests on barabur and 1 on the cap
ReallyEvilMuffin: but no extra workers
Nicolae Carpathia: mine sounds similar: 2 pasture workers work their way northeast, the camp worker moves onto iron mine and starts mining
ReallyEvilMuffin: I don't think that is the end of the world though, they are cheap enough and we can get them out of the new cities fast too
Nicolae Carpathia: that sounds fine, we can always do more worker whips while the revolution counter is running down, stacking a little unhappiness doesnt hurt anyone
Nicolae Carpathia: it is a better than than worker pumping, because this isnt rtr, base bts whips are ridic strong
Nicolae Carpathia: esp when you start w a free granary
ReallyEvilMuffin: yup
ReallyEvilMuffin: looking at the map, the tile 1E of the northern wines
ReallyEvilMuffin: do you think that was meant to be a floodplains?
ReallyEvilMuffin: a riverside desert is unusual
ReallyEvilMuffin: not to be a flood
Nicolae Carpathia: its weird, but there are lots of weird deserts in random locations as well
ReallyEvilMuffin: but not riverside though...
Nicolae Carpathia: god knows what was going through the mapmakers head
Nicolae Carpathia: can you post the results of your micro plan in the thread?
ReallyEvilMuffin: one sec, looking at dotmap ideas
ReallyEvilMuffin: really this city will go to IW eventually
ReallyEvilMuffin: so it needs to be strong
Nicolae Carpathia: cottages or watermills?
ReallyEvilMuffin: I would not cottage it too much, as around there it will be a powerhouse with levee and SP workshops
ReallyEvilMuffin: thats quite nice for a spot, frees up the SW coast, and gives us options for the clam
Nicolae Carpathia: ok, so the deer/iron/horses city to the north gets workshops and watermills, while the cities to the south can be cottaged
ReallyEvilMuffin: the deer first ring though is jungled
Nicolae Carpathia: oh, did it grow just this turn?
Nicolae Carpathia: wait no, its been like that for ages
Nicolae Carpathia: 2F
ReallyEvilMuffin: but actually we will get third ring borders from barabur quickly getting that other deer in
Nicolae Carpathia: here is a pic without the city ring overlays so its easier to dotmap http://imgur.com/Iio4HzV
ReallyEvilMuffin: what if we send both north?
Nicolae Carpathia: that works too
ReallyEvilMuffin: we know that is where we need to fill more cities
Nicolae Carpathia: we can pack them in tight: we're ORG, and we're going monk
ReallyEvilMuffin: Plus there are a few more tiles to share up there
ReallyEvilMuffin: so tentitively, either to share that rice depending on what we see East with the longbow
ReallyEvilMuffin: Or perhaps 1SE of the northern banana?
ReallyEvilMuffin: assuming the city spot you chose as well
Nicolae Carpathia: http://imgur.com/SNLzfCG here is a proposed dotmap
Nicolae Carpathia: ok, im gonna log in, take screenshots of what our north LB and our explorer sees, set science to 0%, and pasture the horses
ReallyEvilMuffin: ok
ReallyEvilMuffin: i moved the northern lonbow already btw, nothing interesting
Nicolae Carpathia: yeah its desert lol
ReallyEvilMuffin: I generally like the northern half
Nicolae Carpathia: ive changed tech back to nat btw
ReallyEvilMuffin: I would say settle red and yellow next
Nicolae Carpathia: i think the northern half takes priority to extend our influence over, south is backfill
ReallyEvilMuffin: yellow comes able to take over 2 power tiles as needed from barabyr
Nicolae Carpathia: but it is a really nice river just south of the capital
Nicolae Carpathia: i actually prefer going blue and red instead of yellow
ReallyEvilMuffin: why blue?
Nicolae Carpathia: grabs more river tiles, can pop the border for red, and the clams are easier to hook
Nicolae Carpathia: plus baraddur prob wont stop working deer and iron
ReallyEvilMuffin: but - we get those deers from barabur third ring shortly anyway, and the banana comes first ring so we can not worry about border pops there
Nicolae Carpathia: true dat
Nicolae Carpathia: yeah you might be right, id just like to scout the bananas a bit more
ReallyEvilMuffin: yes
Nicolae Carpathia: ill move baraddur's warrior towards there
ReallyEvilMuffin: wait
Nicolae Carpathia: also, in your micro plan, does the capital work the oasis or cottage pasture this turn?
ReallyEvilMuffin: he might be needed for MP in cap
ReallyEvilMuffin: seeing if we can spare him
Nicolae Carpathia: well, that can be done with the next warrior
Nicolae Carpathia: (i mean the scouting can be done with next warrior)
Nicolae Carpathia: 2 unhappiness from no garrison hits at either size 4 or 5, i cant remember
ReallyEvilMuffin: he can be spared and moved this turn
ReallyEvilMuffin: the second warrior can get to the cap in time
Nicolae Carpathia: ok good
ReallyEvilMuffin: we have a choice in my plan - do we want a third warrior?
Nicolae Carpathia: ill move him 1177 just in case
Nicolae Carpathia: what does the 3rd entail?
ReallyEvilMuffin: I spent a turn building wealth to save overflow
ReallyEvilMuffin: but it isn't needed
Nicolae Carpathia: oh, then it would be welcome
ReallyEvilMuffin: we essentially have a turn where barabur needs to grow 3-4
Nicolae Carpathia: we always need strong men in the garrisons!
ReallyEvilMuffin: and can 1t a warrior
ReallyEvilMuffin: lol
Nicolae Carpathia: ok lets do it, not much else to build
ReallyEvilMuffin: a third before we loose the ability to build is always good
ReallyEvilMuffin: 13 hams vs 45
Nicolae Carpathia: yup
ReallyEvilMuffin: no brainer really
Nicolae Carpathia: he can sit back and hit on chicks without never going to war
ReallyEvilMuffin: right Im gonna go in game and number the workers to make it easier to write a plan
Nicolae Carpathia: ok ill log out
ReallyEvilMuffin: this turn cap works pasture btw
Nicolae Carpathia: make sure to take shots of the scouting actions
Nicolae Carpathia: explorer still has 1 movepoint
ReallyEvilMuffin: yes
Nicolae Carpathia: logged out
ReallyEvilMuffin: was unsure whether to try and get the coast on the east or west
ReallyEvilMuffin: but sparing the warrior he can get the western coast
Nicolae Carpathia: i say west coast
ReallyEvilMuffin: ok nothing seen
Nicolae Carpathia: fair
Nicolae Carpathia: also, for your micro plan, will the capital be working a scientist or engineer? because we want a scientist there
ReallyEvilMuffin: oh good point
ReallyEvilMuffin: there was lots of overflow in the cap
ReallyEvilMuffin: so not a big deal
ReallyEvilMuffin: That is important though, we end up with a lot of overflow in the cap to channel to something
Nicolae Carpathia: as in overflow into or out of the settler?
ReallyEvilMuffin: after the settler
ReallyEvilMuffin: probably enough to 1t a worker
Nicolae Carpathia: not a bad idea that
ReallyEvilMuffin: right posted
ReallyEvilMuffin: we should swap to slavery t199 IMO after worker actions
ReallyEvilMuffin: so we can get back to serfdom for the new cities ASAP
ReallyEvilMuffin: more than enough overflow for a worker even with the scientist
ReallyEvilMuffin: also given we will hopefully get the AP soon perhaps barabur can grow on a temple?
Nicolae Carpathia: that sounds like it works
Nicolae Carpathia: could you also post your sim so we're both on the same page?
ReallyEvilMuffin: picture?
Nicolae Carpathia: i mean the save file
ReallyEvilMuffin: at which point?
ReallyEvilMuffin: all done or at start of plan
Nicolae Carpathia: start of plan
Nicolae Carpathia: that way i can play around with it
Nicolae Carpathia: maybe from T193 or so
ReallyEvilMuffin: cant post saves
ReallyEvilMuffin: email?
Nicolae Carpathia: can you zip it and attach it?
ReallyEvilMuffin: its in base bts
Nicolae Carpathia: base bts isnt a problem
ReallyEvilMuffin: done
Nicolae Carpathia: thanks!
ReallyEvilMuffin: feel free to make things better, only important things are the chop finish times, and that we get to size 6/4 in cap/barabur pre settler build in each city
Nicolae Carpathia: yep, for the 3/2 pop whips
ReallyEvilMuffin: I think the slav switch comes early, a few roads built and then back to serfdom ASAP for the new cities.
Nicolae Carpathia: agreed
Nicolae Carpathia: hmm, wait, we need the new cities to whip their workers
ReallyEvilMuffin: Oh good point
Nicolae Carpathia: so that might mean a few turns of handbuilding until it can 1pop whip
ReallyEvilMuffin: itll be at least 2 really
ReallyEvilMuffin: ok swap slavery later then
ReallyEvilMuffin: t200
Nicolae Carpathia: yep, so switch after worker movements
ReallyEvilMuffin: yes
ReallyEvilMuffin: we will get some map info on yellow shortly
ReallyEvilMuffin: and can then plan on which cities are best
ReallyEvilMuffin: and take it from there
ReallyEvilMuffin: right I need to shoot now
ReallyEvilMuffin: Talk soon dude
Nicolae Carpathia: np, cya later

From our chat

[Nicolae Carpathia]

Playing with sims, trying to optimise it. There are some important thresholds I need to meet (with some complicated tile-swapping. Baraddur needs to hit 88 from hardbuilds (163 with chop as well) in order to 2-pop the settler with minimal overflow. Capital, on the other hand, is more free to maximise hammers and try to get max overflow into (and 1-turn) a worker

[El Grillo]

Hmm, I can't download the sim for some reason, but the plan in your chat sounds good. The odds on getting a spread from a holy city that close in the next half-dozen turns have to be pretty high, right?

I'd guess the map looks something like this: every civ is on a sharks-fin shape where the tips and bases all connect by land in the equator and at the poles, maybe with some contested islands in between (the silver to the northwest, perhaps?). I think the coast to the east will have an inflection point and become concave up, so that each civ would have a shorter coastline and a longer coastline.