February 9th, 2010, 00:29
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antisocialmunky Wrote:The immediate cause was everyone noticing that giant GNP spike and then Kathlete using that to organize the CoW. Jowy and Dantski ended up distrusting Sullla after they started to talk to each other which IIRC before or during the Byzantine War. They were going to attack anyway. Those two things were the biggest and the most direct causes of the war IMO.
I would say that their play would have resulted in run-away GNP regardless of the academy. I agree that their GNP (combined with the no-tech trading) was a significant factor, I'd just say that the GNP (ie. cottages) was the direct cause and the academy was just a supplement to that.
February 9th, 2010, 02:24
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As I just posted in their thread, I really think Kathlete have done a good job so far.
However, I just realized what's been bothering me about the diplomatic setup - It's the clear #2 (IMHO) that is organizing the CoW and getting all the benefits, whereas India's immediate neighbours are just bumbling ineptly along. If Mali and Greece were the ones who instigated the CoW, it would seem "fair" from a metagaming perspective. The current situation gives me a sour taste in the mouth.
I'm pretty convinced that without the Ottoman involvement and initiative, the other CoW partners would not have had the savvy to organize a successful Indian attack, neither from a tactical nor strategical perspective.
I have to run.
February 9th, 2010, 03:05
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Quote:However, I just realized what's been bothering me about the diplomatic setup - It's the clear #2 (IMHO) that is organizing the CoW and getting all the benefits, whereas India's immediate neighbours are just bumbling ineptly along. If Mali and Greece were the ones who instigated the CoW, it would seem "fair" from a metagaming perspective. The current situation gives me a sour taste in the mouth.
This is exactly how I feel. I don't understand how Kathlete got such widespread support when the only results the CoW could achieve are 1) Mali/Greece getting railed or 2) India getting destroyed or drastically weakened, with Kathlete becoming the clear #1 power (with a solid ally on one side and a long term NAP on the other, AND a ton of land that Greece is making absolutely no play on). It just doesn't make sense to me to replace one clear #1 with another. Jowy was saying that he could walk away from the game happy because he wasn't a footnote on the way to an India victory, but it's not like the CoW actually puts him into a winning position anyway! If he's not a footnote for India, he'll probably be a footnote for the Ottomans.
I understand why everyone was so keen on bringing down India, but the post-war situation really won't make anyone's situation better except for Kathlete. Jowy and Danksi have already lost a lot in terms of opportunity for development, and it really doesn't look like they'll get enough in the war to make up for that.
February 9th, 2010, 04:19
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Hi,
Axiis Wrote:It just doesn't make sense to me to replace one clear #1 with another.
Sure, it does if the post-war #1 is weaker than the per-war #1. And what's the alternative - not joining the war and letting the current #1 win? The benefits of this war are that a) you gain friends because of the mutual struggle, and b) you change a situation from where someone is clearly winning to somebody else who might win.
Looking at the Apolyton demogame, Sulla had voiced his frustration (and rightfully so, IMHO) how the other teams didn't want to join us against PAL, the clear run-away civ. And now he blames the other teams for doing just that? I don't get it.
-Kylearan
There are two kinds of fools. One says, "This is old, and therefore good." And one says, "This is new, and therefore better." - John Brunner, The Shockwave Rider
February 9th, 2010, 04:37
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If I were in this game I would be trying my hardest to sit on the fence and let the others fight it out.
The real benfit is to Slaze now - If he gets the picture and doesn't think about warring, he should be sitting pretty by the time Athlete thinks he will be atticking them.
I have no idea why Althlete/Kalin are considering sending more troops?!?! They seem to be playing a good game one minute (TGL) but combining it with a bad one also (sending more troops). The attackers have lost their edge in this war at the moment and edge is really important. They will get it back again when whosit arrives, lets see if they can keep it! If not then it will draw into a stalemate of pillaging until Spulla get cats at which point the attack is over. Even praets lose to enough lumps of rock! 
February 9th, 2010, 05:21
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Square Leg Wrote:I have no idea why Althlete/Kalin are considering sending more troops?!?! They seem to be playing a good game one minute (TGL) but combining it with a bad one also (sending more troops). The attackers have lost their edge in this war at the moment and edge is really important. They will get it back again when whosit arrives, lets see if they can keep it! If not then it will draw into a stalemate of pillaging until Spulla get cats at which point the attack is over. Even praets lose to enough lumps of rock!
They have to destroy India plain and simple. If they don't send more troops this will not happen. None of the CoW-members can allow India to survive. If India does survive I predict a domi/conq win by them.
February 9th, 2010, 05:36
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My point being that they will have a better chance to take out india by concentrating on economy now, while India are tied up fighting, and teching an advantage. Then hit them.
Everyone's response to India being good was to dog pile them, fair enough, the other response would be to watch everyone else dog pile them and play their game.
I know Spulla have a vast amount of talent and experience but, surely someone else could have gotten into a similar situation? All India did really was build cottages as soon as they could and get an early academy. How hard would it have been for one of the other financial civs to do something along the lines of that? (Academy aside, fair enough PHI lends to it)
India played to their strengths - Fast worker/PHI/FIN - what did everyone expect?  Dantski could have just sent a few skirmishers early doors. 3 or them would have been an immense headache! They wouldn't have chopped an library so soon, they wouldn't have got a GS so soon, the others might have built some cottages earlier etc... It snowballs seems to be the phrase Sulla likes the most!
India can be beaten, and may well be once the praets arrive, but they were never going to be beaten by sending axes and spears.
February 9th, 2010, 05:40
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Jowy and Dantski are the big potential winners from a gang-up on India plan. They are the ones seeing a dangerous neighbour being cut down and potentially gaining lands to expand into. In theory Kathlete and Whosit are the main losers committing their armies to fighting in a war they do not directly benefit from. But as I said, in their shoes, I'd be doing exactly the same thing. If this invasion did not happen, then Spullla would have won a rather boring game.
February 9th, 2010, 06:50
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I don't think its fair to say that the only reason the coalition of the willing is formed is out of fear. The more questionable members have entirely seperate motivations.
Jowy/Dantski have an obvious gain. They remove a dangerous neighbour who would have eventually deigned to stop teching up and kill them. Pure survival.
Kathlete goes from no 2. to no 1. and uses only leftover military units. Its all working out for them.
Whosit gets in good with Kathlete and Jowy for a later partition of the Inca and place in a tech aiding alliance. This is possibly the most questionable involvement as it really has hurt his economy to sustain all those military, build all those galleys and blunt their massive military in an attack that doesn't help them much. His attack is clearly for diplomatic reasons rather than gameplay and stems from the doctrine of mutual aid alliances that he has been talking about since he joined.
Nakor joined in order to build up good relations, particularly with Whosit. By helping to convince Whosit to commit their forces in India it means that they gain greater security. He hasn't really committed a big military force. Just enough to show effort.
February 9th, 2010, 07:19
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Square Leg Wrote:I know Spulla have a vast amount of talent and experience but, surely someone else could have gotten into a similar situation? All India did really was build cottages as soon as they could and get an early academy. How hard would it have been for one of the other financial civs to do something along the lines of that? (Academy aside, fair enough PHI lends to it)
Others could have played better than they have but they didn't. And now they are in a deep hole and their only chance is to bring down the leader:
Square Leg Wrote:My point being that they will have a better chance to take out india by concentrating on economy now, while India are tied up fighting, and teching an advantage. Then hit them. Nope take a look at their techrate. They are still teching faster and better than most of the CoW. Once India has Construction and a few Cats this will turn really bad for the coalition. It is quite possible that Dantski or Jowy exit the game before India.
The real winner (of this ongoing war) will be Inka if they finally have a leader who is willing to play and spend the neccessary time for this game.
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