[SPOILERS - PBEM16] Krill - Tokugawa of Rome

[Krill]

But how can the mapmaker prevent this? I'm not talking about how good or bad the map in PB3 was in general. Clearly the map there was not bad because you could eliminate Korea early?

I always count the amount of turns it would take to build a worker and warrior and compare it from the distance between other players starting warriors and other players capitals. This takes into account production, starting tiles and distance (according the coastal/peak blocks).

Ultimately, you have to start players a decent distance apart, that is the main factor in starting warrior rushes. The PB3 map is bad partly because I could eliminate Korea early.

An early choke or rush can happen if there is some connection between players. Equally an early coordinated attack between players can happen too and there is no way the mapmaker can prevent this.

A choke and a rush are two different things. A coordinated attack in a 2v1 can't happen because the players have to meet before they can coordinate. If 3 players are so close that 2 players can meet, discover the third players capital and then walk 2 warriors onto the thirds land before the third player can get out a second warrior then the players have started too close together. The mapmaker can prevent this by not starting players close together and making a bigger map, using more twisty continents, giving plains hill starts (or even 3h starts if needed).

Perhaps you can enlighten us by explaining how as a mapmaker you would have prevented the early demise of Mortius in PB2 or Korea in PB3. Or how in generall you would create a map that makes it impossible for players to choke an opponent.

Mortius died because he had a scout start, went worker first and didn't take precautions. Everyone knew he started with a scout, he knew everyone knew he started with a scout and he didn't take precautions. He started far enough away from other players that he could have built into a warrior before starting a worker, or could have decided to grow to size 2 before slaving out the worker, and that would have given him plenty of protection without significant delay to his worker. This is basically an issue of starting with Hunting.

Korea OTOH, would have had no option but to spam warriors. In fact, no team had any other option on PB3 map. It was too small. The only reason the rest didn't die was because of luck (read: other player scouting strategies) or diplomatic efforts.

[Krill]

Preventing early warrior kills is pretty simple in quick speed. Just give plains hill start and forested plains hill and 2T warrior keeps you safe in most scenarios. You can also consider line of sight so that there is 3T to build the warrior. However I prefer to give people more than 1 settling option and I don't like always giving everyone plains hill start. Putting a warrior far enough to enable building 1 worker could be used also.

That's one way of doing it.

[Rowain]

Either you have a map with the players close enough that early chokes are possible or you have really big maps with few players which simple turn into boring buildergames with no war possible at least not for a very long time or a huge tech advantage.

[Krill]

Either you have a map with the players close enough that early chokes are possible or you have really big maps with few players which simple turn into boring buildergames with no war possible at least not for a very long time or a huge tech advantage.

War in civ is never about taking someone out in one go, it's a tug of war. The only time you are going to take someone out completely is when you are good enough to build a large tech advantage and that usually requires a badly skilled opponent.

Early chokes do not change that balance. Starting closer or further apart will not change if it is a builder game - look at PBEM4 for the sort of builder game you can pull out.

[Rowain]

PBEM4 is a really strange game.

spoiler for PBEM4 (except Krill)

The only time you are going to take someone out completely is when you are good enough to build a large tech advantage and that usually requires a badly skilled opponent.

Given the situation in that game this doesn't leave many in the skilled opponent section, does it?

[Krill]

Hello over there. We've met in game. over by the gems.

*insert generic greeting here*

Hello,

love and peace and cooperation in all eternity and so on.

So, met everybody already?
I am still missing Dazed.

mh

Dazed has a warrior east of my capital, but I don't quite know where it's going and Dazed won't tell me. I'm currently missing Serdoa.

How are things on your side of the map?

Krill

I'm not lying...

[Krill]

Ooops?

[spacemanmf]

Either you have a map with the players close enough that early chokes are possible or you have really big maps with few players which simple turn into boring buildergames with no war possible at least not for a very long time or a huge tech advantage.

Or you just ban war for the first 30 or 50 turns or something like that. You can go for the landgrab but you had better be able to defend it once the war ban expires.

[Krill]

Or you allow choking and people screw it up leading to a builder game.

Seriously, CIV is a builder game. War is just an extension of the economic side of the game, not an ideal in and of itself that is the aim, and choking is a subset therein.

[Ilios]

"War is a continuation of political relations by other means"