RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[antisocialmunky]

Can we point to specific diplo messages from Sullla where the recipient took it as suspicious and unfriendly? We keep talking about that in general terms but I'd like to see the smoking guns.

Also, I wonder if Sullla has a reputation from the Apolyton demogame? It's well known that Realms Beyond won with a perfectly timed backstab, and Sullla's game writeup makes him known as the person most closely responsible. I wonder if that plants a seed of doubt, consciously or not, about diplomacy from Sullla?

That's a good question. I would classify their general tone really early on as artificially friendly or suspicious sounding because Sullla so heavily composed them as to make them sound unnatural. Many of their early communications from when the only contacts were Dantski + Jowy are good examples of this. I also remember that there are some responses from either Jowy and Dantski in their threads about Sullla not responding to IMs because Sullla wanted to take time to compose every response. Sullla also tried to leverage absolutely everything his way to reduce the chances that the farmer's gambit would be called but I don't think that was such a big deal.

So basically:
-Unnatural sounding language - Suspicious
-Long turn around times to even short emails - Suspicious

It was never really an issue of being unfriendly, rather it was an issue of being more friendly. I never got any impression that people were treating them as anything other than 'The Indians.'

But wasn't everyone faux-friendly? For example almost all of the CoW members had positively sunny relations with Spullla for the first 85 - 90 (or even 100 in Nakor's case) turns of the game if their diplomatic correspondence is to be believed!

But their communications between each other were friendly and casual rather than the highly formal letters people got form Sullla as I said above.

To be quite honest I don't think that anyone has explicitly complained about Sullla's diplo except for that one thing with Dantski and the IMs and someone who called Sullla on his anti-war stuff. It'll probably take until the game ends to get a whole picture.

[MWIN]

Isn't Rome aggressive in this game, which means Preats should have two promotions, right?

When they unload tomorrow and I can see what promotions they have, I'll be able to simulate it and figure out if we can hold the city or not. My gut tells me that if they have just 1 promotion, we'll be fine. If they have 2, we may have to pull out. If it's a mix of 1 and 2 promotions, we'll play it by ear.

[Cyneheard]

Yep. And I'm pretty sure Whosit's praets were all built with rax, so they're all shock Praets. F-burg is in trouble.

[novice]

Isn't Rome aggressive in this game, which means Preats should have two promotions, right?

He mans three promotions, he's not counting the free combat I promotion.
He thinks he can handle CI + Shock, but no CI + Shock + CRI or CI + CRI + CRII.

[Rowain]

Can we point to specific diplo messages from Sullla where the recipient took it as suspicious and unfriendly? We keep talking about that in general terms but I'd like to see the smoking guns.

Not a specific message but a post from Jowy (from Nov 2009 around turn 45)

As for Sullla and Speaker, everything seems so formal and you know, fake. It feels like they take their time with the replies and think carefully of every word. I don't trust them yet, but I don't see them as manipulative or backstabbing. Maybe I can convince them that Rego's team is not to be trusted and we could attack him together at some point of the game.. But does that make me as bad as Rego is?

Worst case scenario is that they both decide to attack me together. I could see that happening because both of their teams have long time RB members, while I'm a stranger here.

A week[~8turns) later Jowy got this mail from Dantski:
Currently Spulla seem very focused on settling in your direction and have also negotiated to try and secure their southern border so they can continue settling north, while they have dealt fairly with me, I wouldn't like to see them pushing your Civ around too much and becoming a powerhouse later.

Looking forward to your reply.

-Dantski
which he commented with

Now this is REALLY interesting. Looks like my intuition was right in Sullla's case.. I just wrote that post on whom I trust before reading this e-mail from Dantski. So both my neighbours have been dishonest with me? And I thought I was being overly-paranoid at the beginning!

and shortly after:

I'm going to get so fucked if Dantski is actually siding with India But to be honest atm all the puzzle pieces seem to fit the picture that India indeed aren't as friendly as they say. Getting Dantski on my side would definately improve my odds. It's a big gamble but we'll see how it plays. I feel like I'm in a good position because I'm in friendly terms with both Ottomans and Mali, the civs who are on the other front of my neighbours. Then again, I've only known them for a while. But I don't think it would be a wise move from their point of view to let either India or Byzantine to become a powerhouse so I think they'll both be loyal to me.

At this time(turn 58 ) the first plans to attack India were discussed by Dantski and Jowy.

[MJW (ya that one)]

We will see if Speaker had a major move (fogerting about aggro rome) next turn. I think he would not forget about it but you never know.

I think it is a good idea for Whosit to attack Koera. It kills the last friend of Spulla and frees his army (because he thinks he would be backstabbed by Koera).

It is really not a 5 vs 1 yet. It is at most 5 vs. 3.

I think Jowy was right in attacking Spulla as soon as possible because his postion would get worse and worse due to poor Civ4 skill. He had to attack out of postion of weakness. Add in the fact that he would have been the first target of Spulla and he wast totally right!

It is a bit insulting to Jowy to ask him to try and win the game even when he as no chance. The only other real thing for him to play for is to screw over Spulla and keep his honor. If a player can do real damage but has no chance of winning that is the game's fault -- not his.

Due to the fact that the CoW came during this game the '5vs1' is Spulla's fault. He should have sandbagged if worse came to worst in this area. I share the same opinion of that guy who said 'it's like going for it on forth down in the NFL' about their diplo.

Of of the players said that this game had lots of "bad faith". This makes no sense to me. This game has spoiler threads! Maybe this is just a flaw on my part...

[Square Leg]

Can I just say: ha ha ha! Whosit really did make a boo boo!

[Beamup]

Spulla took a particular approach to diplomacy that in this situation failed to work. So now everyone is claiming that their approach was a horrible idea. (I will admit that I personally find the tone of their messages distasteful as well). However, their strategy was legitimate and could have worked, in which case they would be heralded as playing the diplo game extermely well. There is no way they could know all the other civ's relations to one another early on. They took a calculated risk in their diplomatic tone and it failed, unlike the Saints on-side kick.

After lurking this game for a while, replying to this finally got me to register. I've similarly been noticing a lot of people arguing that Spulla should have picked one firm ally instead of trying to be friendly to everyone. It would have worked out well this time, but think about it. That argument is effectively saying that they should have picked out one team to be a solid long-term ally by turn 50, before having any kind of coherent picture of the world and players. In the overwhelming majority of games, that would be a profoundly move. Which means that it would be a profoundly move in this game, unless you're prepared to argue that they should have seen the CoW coming that early... when there's no way it would have happened without truly excellent Ottoman diplo.

Their diplo could have been better around the edges, sure - but I simply don't see any major blunders. Certainly nothing like the CoW attacking at four different times in five different stacks and begging to be provided with a textbook example of Defeat in Detail... if they'd all attacked at turn 100, coordinating their targets, India would be GONE.

[darrelljs]

Whosit really did make a boo boo!

Yeah...I think he is a bit naive expecting India to agree to a reload. I certainly wouldn't if I were them...this wasn't a misclick and they are already facing a difficult situation. A break like this could mean the difference between surviving and thriving.

Now, taking off my India hat I think it sucks that the outcome of the game might be altered from something so silly, so I'd like to see a reload. I just don't think he is going to get one without a fight, which he's already said he won't put up .

Darrell

[Twinkletoes89]

Yeah...I think he is a bit naive expecting India to agree to a reload. I certainly wouldn't if I were them...this wasn't a misclick and they are already facing a difficult situation. A break like this could mean the difference between surviving and thriving.

Now, taking off my India hat I think it sucks that the outcome of the game might be altered from something so silly, so I'd like to see a reload. I just don't think he is going to get one without a fight, which he's already said he won't put up .

Darrell

I agree, they may be hesitant as it could make the difference between their GG getting to Freddy or not, but it would be acting in poor faith if they refused a reload imo