[PB79] MirOh No, what am I doing?

[Miro]

(...) Is there a 4th follow up galley coming north; you had it ordinally noted? You might have to land first for #7 if he has that more defended. BTW I assume you know not to promote units until needed if possible? (...)

BTW I checked for capital culture at some point and I don't think #1 is where you have it noted. If he he already seen stuff I would land on the plains hill as that is most inland / west. I have no clue if sailing around would be better or not. You could drop off current units and then pick up more units after they take #4 to then sail around. I kind of like that plan as it gets the units going after #4 back in the fight faster. Can move in 1 unit first to check how many units you will need / then be able to load on. If he has the same garrison in #4 as #5 maybe 10 units to #4 and rest to #5.

I can't tell from your pictures as they don't include scoreboard or mini map, but do you have open borders with Coldrain / scouts along the border?

When did you send the trades / when / what did you check again? I may be a little confused. Once you send the next time you open a window is a 'new' trade offer so it won't show what you sent in the past. You can send multiple trade requests to the same person in the same turn.

The 4th Galley is 1 tile adjacent to the 3 in the north. I put a note above them in the image. 3 are in the city, 1E due to pickup timing.

Yep, I know not to promote until you need to (or defend). I'm used to promoting 1 or 2 "cover" units in stacks to help against big stack fights, but the AI usually doesn't focus on Catapults for stack fights.

You're right, after checking your T62 image, either the capital is probably 1W of where I placed it (3rd culture ring ID'd as 2nd culture ring) or 2 city culture rings were involved.

Galley pickups at #4 would be great! I'll watch for that.

I don't have open borders with coldrain. Here's scoreboard and minimap:


"Oh dang, you gotta patrol that border"

Well, about that...



Hills and forests block any view inside the border. My pagan people pray our powerful peer won't plunder our peaceful lands into peril. Here's power chart:



xist10 has been off the chart for a few turns now, but roughly had Gira's power.

I sent on Cow for Cow trades T132 to Gira and coldrain. On T133 and T134 I checked the active trade screen to see it's empty:


I also see I still have 4 (of 4) Cow resources available to trade, so I guess both trades were declined. I didn't see a prompt for accept/decline come up and didn't know if they would come up.

[Mjmd]

Few possibilities and they aren't exclusive:

- It could be a build up against each other. Never assume its all about you!
- If you hadn't previously offered open borders for fish for fish / cow for cow it could have been precautionary when he saw your power rising.
- Could be in preparation to vulture especially if Rickety has an island city on the other sea.
- Could just be some cat build up for future war / defense. I know I love to build cats during this tech time frame before I get knights.
- It could be just to get you to devout some resources defending your borders in the hopes of slowing you down by forcing you not to send reinforcements. Pretty common and probably scratches any chariot follow ups (or more than 1 or 2). This is also a pretty common reason not to return fish for fish or equivalent; you just don't want them to feel secure so they do whip more units and leave some of them behind.
- It could be a prelude to him attacking you. I think this is the least likely of the options though, but still something to consider. That border is actually pretty secure as is. There is nowhere to move fast through it. Horror is the most likely as can step on hills and its close, but still can't attack in 1 turn from the fog anywhere, which for a border this length is pretty impressive. Just watch for any workers "chopping" forests along there. I've used this excuse to prep roads / workers in position before an invasion. Its good to be paranoid, but don't get overly paranoid.

[Miro]

T135 & T136 Update:


 cheeky cheeky xist. I didn't mention it, but his scouting Numidian Cavalry has been orbiting my stack since ~T130, so he knew it was coming.

I don't think rickety noticed my forces, I don't see any whipped units and on his half of T135, he settled a new city.



I left that new city alone, it won't be able to whip anytime soon and would be auto razed if it never reaches 2-pop.

T135:
War were declared.



3 northern Galleys hit Mediolanum (north coast) for a 6 v 1 on a hill. Lost 1 Cho (+Drill 2), then won with Cho (+Shock).

I found 1 Praet at Neapolis (SE city) and split my army roughly 60/40 to hit Neapolis/Ravenna, respectively.

Turns out, Rome's capital is much farther away than I thought. Antium, City #2, was at the OG 2-culture ring spot I placed. He must've had a very early monument there.

The southern Galleys landed on the hill+sheep as planned and will ferry from Neapolis T137.

T136:

xist with a trade offer:


Now I see how messages get across in MP. He wants to have 2 of Rickety's 7 cities while I get 5 cities. The 2 gpt and convert to Buddhism part I don't understand. I declined.

No whipped reinforcements from Rickety, still 1 Praet and 1 Praet + 1 Warrior in his eastern cities, but if he didn't notice my forces pre-war T135, then this makes sense.

Lost 1 XBow (+Shock) in Neapolis and captured both Neapolis and Ravenna.

Pre-T137: (no moves)

I ended T136, starting T137. Then I took the below screenshots without moving any units. If that order isn't OK and I needed to log out immediately when T137 starts, let me know. (Q2 below)

Updated Rome map view:


We found Rome and Antium with 2 Praet and 1 Praet, respectively. 1 Praet is between them.



Charts/Dems:



Questions:

(Q1): For clarification, because I moved last during the T135 DoW, I must now move after Rickety for all turns for the duration of our war, correct? That's what I've been doing. This one note in the etiquette thread confuses me though: 

Advantages of going second:
(...)
HA/knights 4 tiles through culture before you have to deal with units built in reaction (thanks Krill)

That sounds like they mention 2-move units moving 4 tiles through enemy culture because they went second on T1, then went first on T2.

(Q2): Related to Q1, I ended my turn and logged out, then wanted screenshots for this update so I logged back in right after. Again, I made no moves, but I did notice that there weren't new units whipped out in the cities I have vision over. That conflicts with this part of the etiquette thread:

Advantages of going first:
(...)
Can hide (newly produced) units from prying eyes

If I'm the last player for the turn during war, do I need to make sure to take all related screenshots for turn updates prior to ending the turn so that I can immediately log out ending the turn?

P.S. If I interpreted the turn split rule incorrectly, we may have a problem. If I didn't, then when I finished my turn T136 (as last player, starting T137), I logged back in for screenshots to use in this post. It could be helpful if Mjmd or Gav (or any admin) log in to verify that I haven't moved anything on T137.

[Tarkeel]

You really should log out immediately upon rolling the turn.

[Mjmd]

Q1) Basically you can move 2 movers from the fog 4 tiles before any whipped units would get produced in response. IF power build up unnoticed ect you can move units end of a turn two tiles. Then next turn first half the player whips. You then get another 2 moves before finally the next turn units built in response to your invasion appear. Its why going second is so highly valued. We've had issues with people holding the turn to get for this reason (which most of the time ruins the surprise and negates the advantage although WHERE can also matter). But ya you can take border cities before any whipped units in response to your invasion show up. In comparison if you invade the first half of the turn, the 2nd half the other player whips and then the units are there when you try to attack the next turn.

Q2) Ya take pictures before ending your turn. Edit: unless its sequential because then it doesn't matter as you can't change anything anyways, but for this game don't stay logged in after roll.

Unasked for questions:
Q3) I take Xist's diplo as he wants two cities and probably that he is invading in 2 turns (probably). Its too bad we don't really know what the terrain looks like. You basically want a good border afterwards (if you aren't being greedy / think the situation is such you need to compete). He also didn't send along resources. USUALLY when you make these kind of requests you would put what resources the city you want has to help avoid confusion. I would just keep taking stuff. Depending on the border / situation afterwards it can make sense to let people vulture, but without knowing I would just make him actually beat you to the cities at the very least. AND even though you don't have to let people vulture. He may have already gotten cities due to Rickety not expanding well (not that people always see it that way).

Q4) Might be a decision for next turn, but I would be tempted to send all 6 at the capital. Feels like 6 vs 3 you SHOULD manage to take that. Vodka only gives it 51% though although I was unsure what fortify to use so went with 25% for both already in there. Otherwise you will have to keep slogging through for a while. It will be more of a surer thing, but he has more time to whip (not that he seems to be). I can't tell is Antium on a hill? Maybe its worth taking first then. You do somewhat have to worry about someone razing the capital after you take it (not a ton, but a consideration). It would also allow Ravenna units to keep advancing. Basically I've talked myself into favoring attacking Antium. Generally you do want to try to move fast though. Ya leave the new city alone for now, its not actually contributing to the war effort.

[Miro]

You really should log out immediately upon rolling the turn.

Yeah I feel bad now. Not trying to look around outside my turn, but feel pressure to show war updates.

Q1) Basically you can move 2 movers from the fog 4 tiles before any whipped units would get produced in response. IF power build up unnoticed ect you can move units end of a turn two tiles. Then next turn first half the player whips. You then get another 2 moves before finally the next turn units built in response to your invasion appear. Its why going second is so highly valued. We've had issues with people holding the turn to get for this reason (which most of the time ruins the surprise and negates the advantage although WHERE can also matter). But ya you can take border cities before any whipped units in response to your invasion show up. In comparison if you invade the first half of the turn, the 2nd half the other player whips and then the units are there when you try to attack the next turn.

Q2) Ya take pictures before ending your turn. Edit: unless its sequential because then it doesn't matter as you can't change anything anyways, but for this game don't stay logged in after roll.

Unasked for questions:
Q3) I take Xist's diplo as he wants two cities and probably that he is invading in 2 turns (probably). Its too bad we don't really know what the terrain looks like. You basically want a good border afterwards (if you aren't being greedy / think the situation is such you need to compete). He also didn't send along resources. USUALLY when you make these kind of requests you would put what resources the city you want has to help avoid confusion. I would just keep taking stuff. Depending on the border / situation afterwards it can make sense to let people vulture, but without knowing I would just make him actually beat you to the cities at the very least. AND even though you don't have to let people vulture. He may have already gotten cities due to Rickety not expanding well (not that people always see it that way).

Q4) Might be a decision for next turn, but I would be tempted to send all 6 at the capital. Feels like 6 vs 3 you SHOULD manage to take that. Vodka only gives it 51% though although I was unsure what fortify to use so went with 25% for both already in there. Otherwise you will have to keep slogging through for a while. It will be more of a surer thing, but he has more time to whip (not that he seems to be). I can't tell is Antium on a hill? Maybe its worth taking first then. You do somewhat have to worry about someone razing the capital after you take it (not a ton, but a consideration). It would also allow Ravenna units to keep advancing. Basically I've talked myself into favoring attacking Antium. Generally you do want to try to move fast though. Ya leave the new city alone for now, its not actually contributing to the war effort.

Q1) I see, that's just like how I saw with my ground forces. Even though they're 1-movers, they were able to hit cities the turn after DoW, so I see why going 2nd is strong.

Q2) Won't do it again!

Q3) Ooooh, 2 gpt meaning to invade in 2 turns, that makes sense.

Q4) I was looking at the 6 vs capital first, too, but figured the faster moves from Ravenna was worth it. Antium is on a hill, across a river. I'm playing my half of T137 now and see rickety moved his middle Praet to Antium, so I'm moving the 6 vs 2 at capital as the 4 vs 2 in Antium isn't as promising.

[Miro]

I'll show more pics next turn for a war summary, but the gist of it is that all of Rome's cities have been captured (8th city auto razed) except for Cumae, where xist10 is moving in.

xist DoW'd last turn (2nd half, before I played) and sent at least 1 Knight in against 1 Praet with both units surviving. 3 more Knights are now in range of Cumae. The Praet is barely alive and my 1 adjacent Cho-ko-nu has a chance to snipe it next turn to capture the city.

(Q5): Am I able to attack next turn if I logged in before xist? We both have 2nd half turn splits, though he went before me this turn. I don't think I should attack next turn, even just a handful of Knights can be tough right now and xist is clearly pushing for the city.

(Q6): I'm grabbing another city in the middle of Rome. I originally planned for the location below, but this could make for an awkward border with xist. What are your thoughts? Settle 1E? 2E?

[Mjmd]

Q5) No. The only time this is somewhat allowed is if troops are in totally separate theaters of operation. Even then we've had enough inadvertent issues you should ask. In this situation where its a race NO. I'll note this is a prime example of why only moving 1 unit first might be a good idea. If you had moved 1 unit onto the hill you could have held / moved the rest back. Right now it "looks" like you might attack him afterwards, which might cause him to attack you. That and I bet the other city he wanted was Arretium. Lets see how paranoid / bloodthirsty he is.

Q6) Ya settling there is pretty aggressive atm (it is a fine filler site otherwise). 2 east is ok. Antium can take Rome rice and the filler can take Antium rice. Maybe move it there for now but look at my idea 7 and see what you think.

7) this is just a thought, but you could offer a trade of Cumae for Arretium. It gives him another port, but makes the border look MUCH better. I would just ask for lurker input to confirm its ok. I don't think this breaks spirit of 1 city per deal. Its technically 2, but its only 1 per side and its net 0.

[Tarkeel]

7) this is just a thought, but you could offer a trade of Cumae for Arretium. It gives him another port, but makes the border look MUCH better. I would just ask for lurker input to confirm its ok. I don't think this breaks spirit of 1 city per deal. Its technically 2, but its only 1 per side and its net 0.

FWIW, I think this is perfectly inside the rule.

[klops]

Is that an unprotected settler?
See Mjmd about paranoid neighbours but also... a roman chariot could snipe it from Cumae for free.