[PB 55] Miguelito and Mjmd help Amicalola avoid a repetition of last time

[Mjmd]

I was going to mention the hill thing actually lol. We will have culture out quite a ways for warning and we can learn a bit from PB52 lol.

The new food is the irrigated wheat, not sure what I'm missing there. I just don't think it will be sharing the sheep that much, so think the 1st ring wheat is better.

100% right about the horse city (either placement) not having additional tiles to work. This pushes me hard towards copper. It is pretty important to be whipping early. See PB51 my horrible copper city that produced 2 settlers in 100 turns and slowed my growth curve.

[Miguelito]

Edit: crosspost with Mjmd, this isn't meant as an answer.

I really don't expect any of the neighbours to rush (of course watch the power graph), my main concern with delaying copper are the barb spears I mentioned,  which would need to be handled with warriors/ settler cover, if they come close.
Or, we could just research archery and make them run into those, on hills? That could actually be a plan that would make me feel fine about delaying copper until the fifth city
How far have you simmed already? Do we have an eta for the 5th settler?

How about we move yellow dot 1E onto the plains tile? Get the copper mined asap, and build monument and WB with that (monument silks be three turns from founding - 1 turn bare copper hill + 2 turns mine + 3 turns the city tile hammer give just the needed 15h, then it's 5 more turns for the workboat.

That city could grow decently with clam+plains cow,  work the mines at size 4 or grow taller on FIN coast.  Has a riverside grass to cottage or even farm. I feel like this city is much nicer long term.
The main drawback is delaying the workboat,  as it can't be chopped (or we take the penalty), and the monument likely has to come first. Delaying the silver is not much of an issue; the mine shouldn't get worked before size 3 even with the original yellow dot.

[Mjmd]

If yellow dot 1E had a forest I would totally be on board as that is almost certainly a superior spot overall and fits in an extra city. We could use the first whip on either a monument or work boat but just seems like doing either other spot is probably better without.

Now that it was pointed out exactly how bad our horse spot is (I really hadn't noticed, I just saw irrigated wheat and horse and went "its fine"), I think just biting the bullet for copper is my vote (for the 2 cents it counts). We can skip the horse city until 6, we can't skip copper that long and copper city is going to be a beast to hook either way. Other nice thing is we can get some spears started as warriors in queue to hopefully avoid emergency axe whips against warriors.

ETA for 3rd settler (4th city) is probably T45-46k. ETA for 4th settler (5th city) should be T49 (10 turns after) if I have any say about it. A good reason not to steal away the sheep for any amount of time. After 5th city we will need more workers (honestly you could argue we should do a worker instead of 5th city and we may, but I suspect we will do 5th city and chop a worker somewhere, hopefully after 4).

[Mjmd]

I'll stick with my vote for copper.

Either way I'm actually pretty sure we should whip a worker out of Coffee instead of settler. We just have so much territory to road and lots of improvements in cities that can't share ect. We can also insure all future settlers have chops, which I'm not sure they would otherwise. Plus start getting cottages down ect. We can then go city 4 / 5 / 6 in rapid order. Will also let us get the whip counter in Coffee started sooner.

[Amicalola]

Hmm, once again you have both convinced me on something. I am convinced now that going copper for 3 is the way to go. I also hadn't looked too hard at the horse spot beyond 'wet grain good' and it's much worse than I'd been imagining.

I actually like Miguelito's idea for the new yellow dot: 3 turns to build a monument isn't really much worse than a chop, plus we can get a workboat out quite fast with the copper mine, just in time to start growing onto the cows and silver and copper. The no-forest is a bastard, but might have to be something we just accept. To be honest, that city is so much better long-term I'm really not sure how I didn't consider it.

I haven't simmed up to our settlers and workers beyond T43, which we probably need to do in the next few days. I'll have a look and maybe you can too, and we'll see what ends up being the best. Those rough estimates are nice to have for now though.

Edit: Nope I changed my mind again! I'm sorry I'm so indecisive on this. I'm going horses 3 because it gives me something obvious to do with the second worker which is actually very valuable right now, and it's the stronger city early on.

[Miguelito]

logged in to take a look but didn't touch anything.

The new food is the irrigated wheat, not sure what I'm missing there. I just don't think it will be sharing the sheep that much, so think the 1st ring wheat is better.

What I meant that settling on the horse doesn't claim additional food compared to the hill, it just gets it earlier (again, that's not nothing).

100% right about the horse city (either placement) not having additional tiles to work. This pushes me hard towards copper. It is pretty important to be whipping early. See PB51 my horrible copper city that produced 2 settlers in 100 turns and slowed my growth curve.

If yellow dot 1E had a forest I would totally be on board as that is almost certainly a superior spot overall and fits in an extra city. We could use the first whip on either a monument or work boat but just seems like doing either other spot is probably better without.

Now that it was pointed out exactly how bad our horse spot is (I really hadn't noticed, I just saw irrigated wheat and horse and went "its fine"), I think just biting the bullet for copper is my vote (for the 2 cents it counts). We can skip the horse city until 6, we can't skip copper that long and copper city is going to be a beast to hook either way. Other nice thing is we can get some spears started as warriors in queue to hopefully avoid emergency axe whips against warriors.

ETA for 3rd settler (4th city) is probably T45-46k. ETA for 4th settler (5th city) should be T49 (10 turns after) if I have any say about it. A good reason not to steal away the sheep for any amount of time. After 5th city we will need more workers (honestly you could argue we should do a worker instead of 5th city and we may, but I suspect we will do 5th city and chop a worker somewhere, hopefully after 4).

I'll stick with my vote for copper.

Here we may have to agree to disagree. I think the Water-Coffee-Horse city triangle can be pretty dynamic with the sheep shared between them. Each of these cities has one 5f resource on their own, and then the other 2 are shared between them. They then each have a decent early tile more (horse/stone/ivory), and after that grass cottages or whatever. Even if the horse city takes the sheep most of the time unless there are settlers/workers in the queue, I think the other two will be fine, and horse city will be pretty great early on - grow to 4 on sheep/wheat/(horse), 2pop whip, repeat. On the way get plenty hammers from the PH plant and the horse. Mid/long term it isn't great, but as you have mentioned that is true for any city in that area. At least it can help a bit with cottages, and has a number of FIN coast tiles which aren't awful?

Regarding moving the yellow dot 1E, I think if we found this as 5th or 6th city the delay can be afforded for the much stronger city mid/long term. If it is our third, I'd also wnat the chop. So that's another argument for horse third

So yes, I would argue for horse as third city, together with archery, but I agree that there are strong arguments for both approaches. Amica's call of course, choose whichever makes you feel better, I'm sure either can work. And Mjmd has the advantage that he knows the micro; my recommendations ar emore general (I think we don't have any workers south of the cap right now?

[Amicalola]

Edit: This whole post is obsolete now, I am sending the second worker down to start chopping the plains forest for city 3 (HORSE CITY)

[Miguelito]

Hmm, once again you have both convinced me on something. I am convinced now that going copper for 3 is the way to go. I also hadn't looked too hard at the horse spot beyond 'wet grain good' and it's much worse than I'd been imagining.

I actually like Miguelito's idea for the new yellow dot: 3 turns to build a monument isn't really much worse than a chop, plus we can get a workboat out quite fast with the copper mine, just in time to start growing onto the cows and silver and copper. The no-forest is a bastard, but might have to be something we just accept. To be honest, that city is so much better long-term I'm really not sure how I didn't consider it.

I haven't simmed up to our settlers and workers beyond T43, which we probably need to do in the next few days. I'll have a look and maybe you can too, and we'll see what ends up being the best. Those rough estimates are nice to have for now though.

crosspost, again.

Probably you hadn't considered moving the dot because you saw the cow just recently, and once a dot is placed on the map it often looks pretty much set

How many hammers does an out of borders chop give, 13? Speeds the WB up by 2 turns, is that worth it?

[Mjmd]

Thoughts on the second (non-chopping) worker heading down to camp the ivory on T38? I can't really find anything better for him to do, and there will still be 2 workers ready to help mine the copper and start roading around. The alternative is pre-chopping a forest. Actually, I'm gonna do that, since we don't need the happiness short term. Sorry, I need to make a snap decision now, we're rolling the turn and I don't wannt hold the game up.

IF your going for copper, move it 2 and it can start roading next turn up to copper. Edit: typing fast, this allows 2nd worker to catch up. 3rd worker can then do some quick connects before going back and doing something.

Yes all workers are north atm.

Edit: just one last anti horse thought again. I'm still not sure how much we can share the sheep if we settle the horse city on the hill while trying to maintain a 10 turn whip cycle. Once we have granaries would be much more doable.

[Amicalola]

Regarding moving the yellow dot 1E, I think if we found this as 5th or 6th city the delay can be afforded for the much stronger city mid/long term. If it is our third, I'd also wnat the chop. So that's another argument for horse third  

So yes, I would argue for horse as third city, together with archery, but I agree that there are strong arguments for both approaches. Amica's call of course, choose whichever makes you feel better, I'm sure either can work. And Mjmd has the advantage that he knows the micro; my recommendations ar emore general (I think we don't have any workers south of the cap right now?

I like the idea of delaying this for the stronger city too much to not do it. Sorry for the wishy-washy, I just woke up and had to play the turn, so it's all happening at once. We'll work out which order to do copper and Lewwyn cities, but they'll be 5 and 6 in order.