Singaboy and Sullla's team thread

[Singaboy]

I forgot the exact numbers, but what would be the difference we are getting in terms of hammers for a straight charge compared to the charge using corvee and pantheon bonus. We might be able to make up for that by continuing to produce hammers for Stonehenge (remember there is a planned 2 turn break). If that is good enough, we can push the finish date to T33.

I checked and it would be 27 versus 35 hammers. Two turns of keeping production on Stonehenge will get us 12 hammers. That's more than enough. I have added the numbers to the spreadsheet and due to +1 amenities, it just seesm to work out for T33.

[Sullla]

The save arrived much later than usual today, and as a result I'll try to make this quick. Unfortunately it was also a highly eventful turn, and that means I have to explain what's taking place in some detail.



The biggest news for my civ was finally founding the second city, Ostia. It's a nice pairing, Roma and Ostia for the first two cities. I'm going to have this city create a trader unit to establish a trade route for the Currency boost, as there's no immediate need for a builder (this city already has several good tiles to work), I get free monuments as Rome, and there's no need for a granary when this city will get a Bath district later. The trader only costs 46 production and that should finish in about 10 turns after factoring in city growth.

What I want to do is to work the unused 3/1 wheat farm up at Roma. That requires purchasing a tile to connect the cities together culturally. I can purchase the tile for Roma in the third ring:



This would cost 90 gold. Or I can purchase the same tile for Ostia:



And now it costs 60 gold because it's in the second ring instead of the third ring. This is always something to consider when purchasing tiles; better to get them from the closer city whenever possible. Anyway, I go ahead and do that which takes Ostia to +3 food/turn surplus and growth to size 2 in five turns. This will coincide nicely with the capital hitting size 4 in six more turns, which will deliver the Early Empire boost right on schedule. I highlighted Ostia's city interface in the screenshot below:



Over by the eastern barb camp, the Commercial city state is mimicking the same actions that we saw with the Cultural city state over by Singaboy. They appear to be watching the camp for now without attacking. I'm going to try and weaken this unit, then kill it with the slinger on its way from the capital. It's actually more important to claim the Archery tech boost than the 50 gold reward for clearing the camp, although of course I'll try to do both here if possible. The city state warrior will probably just sit there inert like the one over by Singaboy.

Now here's the bit of news I spotted that threw me for a loop:



EmperorK is now up to 6 Great Prophet points/turn. That's a Lavra completed at both of his two cities along with Divine Spark for the pantheon. It has to be Divine Spark, I'd be really surprised if they managed to get two shrines completed that quickly. (The one in the second city would have to have been cash-rushed, and I don't think the Russian capital had time to build a Lavra, settler, and shrine this quickly. Maybe though.) Right now, the Russia/Germany team will found their religion in six turns (going T28 = 35 GPP, T29 = 41 GPP, T30 = 47 GPP, T31 = 53 GPP, T32 = 59 GPP, T33 finish) and match our own Turn 33 completion date. But EmperorK plays before Singaboy in turn order, and therefore they would found the religion before we did. What a bummer - it's just so hard to beat Russia to the first religion if they want it. If only we'd had stone at the capital instead of over at the second city location.

Here's my crazy thought for the night: what if we didn't use a builder charge to plantation the sugar resource right now? What if we used that builder charge for Stonehenge as well? I don't have time to do the math right now, but that might be enough to push our Stonehenge ETA up to Turn 32 and win the race by a turn. Would you be willing to look into that Singaboy and see if that makes sense? I think we might have to move the builder towards Changsha on THIS TURN to make that happen, so you'll need to consider that right away before playing. Unfortunately it's late and I don't have more time to ponder this so I leave the decision in your hands on how to play this.

Stupid Russia...

[Singaboy]

I fear they might purchase the GPP a turn earlier with some gold. Anyway, if you had not spent that gold for the tile, we could have bought another builder in Changsha. I will do the math whether we still get enough gold to buy that builder.

edit: Nope, anyway, we would have to buy that builder on T29, that it can jump into action on T30 and we are short of gold then.

If I move my builder immediately, it will arrive in time to finish Stonehenge on T32. However, if we manage to buy a builder on T30 and I start to charge now, we can push the finish date to T31.

[Singaboy]

Turn 27:

The attempt to get the Stonehenge and our religion by T32 is now in full swing. However, we need to be mentally prepared to be only #2 to finish a religion and make some preparations for that. Changsha's builder moves into position but will only start charging on T29/30/31, when the builder from Xian arrives to charge on T31/32 finishing the wonder by a surplus of a mere 1.x hammers. The details are in the excel spreadsheet. Currently, the contribution is 4.2 hammers a turn and will increase to 6.3 hammers when the city grows in 2 turns.



I start to move the builder from Xian towards Changsha but due to terrain it will be in position on T31 only. I switch from State Workforce to Early Empire to avoid wasting culture. Currently 26/28 culture has been accumulated for State Workforce. Xian's district is 2 turns away from completion, so is Early Empire with a minimal wastage of 0.8 culture when the Inspiration comes in. I will then swap to mysticism for 2 turns. I could of course, implement State Workforce in 2 turns and get more hammers out of each builder charge at the expense of a Pantheon delay by 2- 3 turns. I am contemplating that move, what do you think, Sulla?

I started to move the warrior to move into the uncharted territory to the north of Xian while the slinger will move south of Changsha to bust some fog there to find a few more locations for cities.



My plan post Stonehenge is to go right after pyramids at Changsha. This is achieved by slotting in the next builder at Xian after it's Holy Site. That builder could finally connect the sugar as well and then move towards Changsha. The question remains what technologies to go after beyond masonry. I am thinking of either BW or the path towards writing to be able to build campuses which we will need badly as well. Since, Jebel Barkal required IW, we need to find out the location of iron and mine it for the Eureka. Hence, one of us has to go for BW soon.

I will need a new government too in order to have Colonization enabled besides Corvee. Luckily, I will get to State Workforce and Early Empire really soon and should get PP fast as well.

Now, the questions that is most pressing. What, if we fail to get the first religion. What, if Jesuit Education is taken? I am in favor of Divine Inspiration as a second choice as it will grant +4 faith for each world wonder. China will have plenty of that. This could be combined with Wat's that provide a further 3 faith and 2 science and could be purchased using faith too.
Again, Sulla, what do you think should be the alternative solutions here? What are your plans for technologies beyond archery and writing?

[Sullla]

I agree that we need to start thinking about preparations on what to do if we're second to found a religion. My personal guess is that it's about 50/50 odds as to whether we'll be able to get the first religion on Turn 32. EmperorK will be able to claim the first Great Prophet that turn via patronage since it will be at 59/60 points, but that will still cost roughly 75-100 gold and they'll have to be thinking that there's no competition in sight. That's a lot of gold to drop when you're 30 Great Prophet points ahead of the Khmer team and it's obvious that they won't be able to catch up. So like I said, maybe they don't decide to spend money on a race that looks all but certain to be won and we get lucky. Maybe.

I should be clear that it's not the end of the world if we don't get the first religion. Heck, maybe we get even luckier and EmperorK doesn't try to grab Jesuit Education for his Follower belief. Choral Music is very strong in its own right and it would synergize well with Russia's cheap Lavra districts. Pick up free culture at the same time that you're getting faith from the shrines and temples. Still, let's assume a worst case scenario here and assume Jesuit Education is gone. What else would we pick? I think there are two choices: Choral Music and Divine Inspiration.

Choral Music: shrines and temples provide cultural output equal to their faith output. This is really nice like I said above, getting two things for the price of one. It would make Singaboy a huge cultural powerhouse while also stacking up faith for Holy Site building purchases and Theocracy unit purchases. I also like the denial value of taking this away from other teams. Still, it might not be as much of a synergy as the other option...

Divine Inspiration: all world wonders produce 4 faith/turn. This is normally garbage for most teams but it has a special role for China's wonder building ability. If we landed all 14 of the Ancient/Classical era wonders, that would mean 56 faith/turn and we wouldn't have to do anything to take advantage of it. Build the wonders, get free faith. With that said though, the biggest problem with Divine Inspiration is that we don't have a lot to spend the faith on. Units when in Theocracy government and the worship buildings at the Holy Sites, I suppose. That's still pretty good but without Jesuit Education to be spending faith on science buildings, the prospect of simply accumulating lots of faith isn't as appealing.

I think I lean slightly towards Choral Music because it denies a really powerful belief to other teams. It would also make building Holy Site districts worthwhile for Rome, as I could simply ignore Theatre districts and build Holy Site districts with shrines/temples instead for culture. I don't think any of the other Follower beliefs would be worth pursuing. What do you think Singaboy?

You must take a Follower belief when founding a religion, so that covers half of the decision we'll have to make. Here's my ranking priority for the other belief, which can come from any of the other three categories:

1) Defender of the Faith: +10 strength to units defending friendly cities with the religion. If it's there, we're taking it. Way too powerful to let another team have it if at all possible.

2) Church Property: +2 gold for each city following the religion. This is by far the best belief in the weak Founder category, and the gold stacks up in a huge way over the course of a game. Alhambram was making bank off of this in PBEM2 and we'll have even more cities here by virtue of having two players on the same team. If we both get a dozen cities, that's 50 gold/turn in perpetuitity completely for free. This should be our top pick if DOTF is gone.

3A) Wats: +2 science and +3 faith/turn.
3B) Meeting Houses: +2 production and +3 faith/turn.

These two are both great choices for the Worship building slot, and for that very reason they have a lower priority. We should be able to get one or the other, and therefore there's no need to rush. I also rate Wats as slightly better than Meeting Houses but both are pretty good. I don't think we'll have to go any lower than this on the list, but my next choice down would be Pilgrimage (+2 faith/turn for each foreign city practicing this religion) because it would allow for more faith via Roman cities. As I said though, it shouldn't be necessary.

I could of course, implement State Workforce in 2 turns and get more hammers out of each builder charge at the expense of a pantheon delay by 2-3 turns. I am contemplating that move, what do you think, Sulla?

I agree that we should make this change, finishing State Workforce ASAP and getting into Corvee for the bonus production on the builder charges. The whole idea about delaying was to have both Corvee and Monument to the Gods in hand before using any builder charges. Since that's not going to happen, better to have Corvee when we use those charges than nothing at all. If it also avoids the possibility of wasting culture en route to Political Philosophy, then so much the better. Oh, and I also concur on getting another builder out of Xian for the Pyramids after the current Holy Site finishes. We should be able to line up Monument to the Gods + Corvee + Autocracy at that point for the full production bonus on builder charges, and there's no reason to delay the Pyramids since they essentially pay for themselves with the free builder. They're even worth 2 culture/turn making them equal to a monument. Let's supercharge those Chinese builders.

My current plan for technology involves finishing Mining and then going Bronze Working (to reveal iron for our teams) into Archery (needed to capture the Industrial city state). We already have the boost for Bronze Working and hopefully I can get the boost for Archery at this barbarian camp off in the east. Next up, I am tentatively thinking of heading for Currency; that means Writing first (already boosted) into Currency itself, which I'm hoping to boost with the trader that my second city is working on. We should also think carefully about how to make best use of the district discounting formula that Cornflakes posted about in the General Forum. That has the potential to revolutionize how districts get placed since that 40% cost discount is so enormous. I plan to have my Roman civ emphasize Commercial, Campus, and Industrial districts in that order. Your civ will probably be creating Holy Site, Campus, and Commercial districts for the most part. Is there any part of the tech tree that looks like it would be useful for China to pursue separate from where Rome is going? Obviously Masonry first for the Pyramids, but I don't have a clear sense after that.

Whew, busy posts for so early in the game. This is a lot of fun.

[Singaboy]

Good input. I saw the news about districts and it would very well apply here as well though I need to let that info sink in to fully understand it here. What we need is one of us having 3 different districts so that we can unlock Math and Changsha build the Uber-wonder Petra. Now, I got to figure out whether it is better to have a second Holy Site before unlocking writing for the 40% discount and again, build a campus before unlocking currency? Of course, for a second Holy Site, it might be a good idea to have a third city up and running.

I need to squeeze in a settler after the builder in Xian. Should be doable using Colonization with the wildcard slot in Autocracy.

As for culture overflow, it might be best to have the Inspiration from the Holy Site and then go for State Workforce the turn after to get the overflow into PP. Need to work that out yet again. This happens if I switch to State Workforce on T29 instead of T28. Means the first builder charge would still be done at 27 hammers.

[Sullla]

A quiet turn for me but more news out in the fog.



Down in the south, my veteran warrior has finally finished healing and will begin exploring the southwest part of our continent. I'm very interested to follow that river and see what else is hiding to the south of Xian. For research, I finished Mining tech and began the investigation of Bronze Working (9 turns, less with city growth).



Roma finishes a slinger and starts a second one. It heads off towards the barbarian camp in the east, where my warrior attacked at a penalty of -4 strength and traded some damage on the losing end. Lacking the Discipline bonus against barbarians makes a real difference. I'll heal up for the next two turns and then try to get the kill with the warrior + slinger pairing. That city state warrior hanging out in the area is super annoying and has a good chance of swiping the camp clear away from me. I'm going to prioritize getting the slinger kill for the Archery boost over picking up the 50 gold from the camp itself.

Now for the biggest news of the turn:



Mikeforall of the Khmer has completed a Holy Site district project in his capital; his Great Prophet score went up by 15 points this turn, 13 from the district project and 2 from his natural increase. Khmer is now ahead of Russia, although Russia will quickly take the lead back since EmperorK is getting 6 Great Prophet points/turn compared to 2 points/turn for Mikeforall. The fact that these two are racing one another is super annoying for our team, as this will make Russia all but certain to patronage the Great Prophet on Turn 32 and swipe it away from us by virtue of turn order. There's also the possibility now that Khmer will complete a second Holy Site district project in the next four turns and also beat us to the punch, although I think the project will be expensive enough that they'll fall short. I think, not sure.
(At least we both play ahead of Mikeforall so we will win any same turn ties with Khmer.)

Let me just say that this behavior is completely mindboggling to me on the part of the Khmer/Kongo team. Mikeforall has built a non-discounted Holy Site district, a shrine, and what's going to be *TWO* Holy Site district projects in the first two dozen turns. While he did squeeze out a settler (so the shrine was probably cash-rushed), his growth curve has been enormously set behind. His Kongo partner still doesn't have a settler finished or a district completed yet. This is self-destructive behavior on a giant scale and I have no idea what this team is thinking. Seriously you guys, if you had just played a more normal opening Russia wouldn't be racing so hard for the first Great Prophet and we could have claimed it easily with Stonehenge. Argh! (I do take some solace in the slow start of the Khmer/Kongo and Nubia/England teams. The Russia/Germany team is the only one keeping pace with us so far.)

I don't think this changes anything about our own Stonehenge plans though. We'll just shoot for the Turn 32 finishing date and cross our fingers. Not much else we can do at this point. Fortunately, we have three different Follower beliefs that are all useful to us (Jesuit Education, Choral Music, Divine Inspiration in that order) and we already have our list of other beliefs lined up from yesterday's posts. We'll get something useful out of our Stonehenge play no matter what.



And in the totally random department.... I noticed that the minimap allowed me to scroll way off to the east for some reason. It turns out that there's an Encampment pin over there placed by another team. The pins have been kind of buggy ever since they were first implemented, and we have visibility on this one when we shouldn't. Now I don't think this really gives anything away, since we knew that the other teams must be out in the fog somewhere, but for the lurkers reading this, it might be helpful to let the other teams know that the pins are acting buggy again and it might be good to refrain from placing them on the map.

Not something I was expecting to see today.

[Singaboy]

Turn 28:

The calm before the storm. Nothing much of interest happened as I am awaiting 'happening' turns to follow. The builder at Changsha is waiting for another turn before starting to charge the wonder. Xian's builder is on the way to Changsha, while the warrior and slinger are moving on their paths to bust some fog. I feel better having the slinger to protect the builders at Changsha.

Early Empire will be done next turn with Changsha growing, Xian's Holy Site done to get the Inspiration for State Workforce. I will be on my way to Political Philosophy on T30 gaining around 5 culture a turn. With the required 44 culture for that, it should be done in around 8 turns given some overflow from State Workforce.
After Stonehenge, Changsha will go for the pyramids with the aid of the next builder from Xian. I can use the turns in between to kick-start the production for the pyramids, maybe 4 builder charges are enough to finish the wonder. The wonder costs 220 hammers. With all three multipliers in place, 84% of the wonder can be done by 4 builder charges. This leaves 16% or 35.2 hammers. Changsha is making 7.8 hammers with Corvee and Pantheon alone. This will work out perfectly.
In fact, Changsha can afford to spend some hammers on a monument before starting on the pyramids to wait for 30% bonus on production from Corvee and Pantheon.

I would also think, that Changsha should then produce a settler (with Colonization activated under Autocracy), before resuming work on wonders.

As for research, once masonry is done, I still need to research animal husbandry. There are potentially two farms to be built at Xian and Changsha, hence that technology is needed. Of course, it would also be good to get at least a total of three slingers produced before finishing archery.

[Sullla]

Singaboy, your math sounds good to me on the Pyramids. Four worker charges with all three multipliers in place combined with normal production for the last 20% of the wonder looks like a good plan. One note about Changsha: it might want to construct a Holy Site district next when not building wonders, as I think that will discount the cost of your other districts if you have two Holy Site districts completed first. I'm not entirely sure of that and I'll have to check the post that Cornflakes put together first. Anyway, on to my half of the turn:



The warrior in the south revealed more jungle tiles. There's some excellent land down here, and space for another city along the river. We'll probably want to put more Chinese cities here that can benefit from Colosseum and maybe Jebel Barkal if they're within 6 tiles. Still need to explore the rest of the land and see how far the river stretches.



Not too much to report over in the east. The warrior fortifies to heal in place while the slinger continues moving over. The city state warrior does nothing to help and sits to wait for a camp steal. Anyway, here's the biggest news of the turn:



Well... we're not getting the first Great Prophet. EmperorK matched Mikeforall and ran a Holy Site district project of his own. To summarize, that was double Lavras with Divine Spark pantheon plus a Holy Site district project. Great Prophet claimed for Russia on Turn 30 - sheesh. The first Great Prophet has been falling around Turn 50-60 in most of the other PBEM games. Sometimes you just have to tip your hat to another team for a job well done. Kudos to EmperorK for focusing on what he wanted and bending his civ to get it accomplished. I mean, there's a reason why Russia was going to be our pick in this game over China. It's really hard to deny Russia the first religion if they want it.

EmperorK will claim the Great Prophet next turn and then found his religion on Turn 31. (Great People can't move on the turn that they're claimed.) That will let us see what beliefs their team chooses before we have to pick ourselves. Let's hope that they wanted something other than Jesuit Education and Defender of the Faith. It's still possible that they wanted something else; maybe we get super lucky here. But we'll still get something good for our troubles. Choral Music and either Church Property or Wats would still be pretty sweet for us.

[Singaboy]

Turn 29:

The race is over
Well, we did our best and still, we are not doing badly at all and I think, besides the religion, we got a good plan to get ahead in the game.

Well, it turns out all my math are somewhat off. Though I get both Inspirations for Early Empire and State Workforce, none of them is completed. It was planned for SW but I calculated that EE should be ready. Anyway, I am going to switch over to SW and get it done next round with the overflow going into EE and then all into PP.

The first builder charge goes into Stonehenge, it's at 49/180. this is according to my spreadsheet, where Changsha has made 49.7 hammers by now. Next turn, with Corvee in place, it will accelerate. The Pantheon is now estimated to come in at T33, as a swap to Corvee will get faith back to 1 per turn.

Xian has finished its district and goes for another builder for the pyramids.




I check Changsha and there is a suitable location for the Holy Site. It would cost 60 gold to buy the tile (W of Stonehenge) . What do you think, Sulla. I could buy the tile next round to drop the site for now. Building a second Holy Site is necessary to get a cheaper campus later on with discount.