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[PB 61 - Spoilers] rekenner stands the Test of Time. ... Hopefully.

Checking in.

So, I'm supposed to help out here,  and now I find myself in a team with Sulla lol
What I can bring to the table is that I've completed a game with the mod, and have been lurking a fair bit, so as to be aware of the meta.

Most traits are competitive now,  and you can ask yourself  in the first place what you think would be fun for you to play. 

I get that you have some love for Phi? Definitely an interesting trait with a nice buff, although I'd pair it with something early like Imp/(Chm)/Cre/(Pro),  and you will want to work on a good bulb plan early,  if not before the game (and that might just be what makes it fun for you).
Ind/Phi has great synergy,  and we've seen some great showings in advanced start games,  but we have yet to see if it can get through the early game of a regular start. Maybe with a civ that helps you early? It can do some pretty crazy stuff,  like Oracle into MC into a 15 turns GE for Pyramids. Btw I like Ind in a small field.  if you pick it before anybody else you may discourage others from picking it,  basically claiming a lot of wonders already.
Not too fond of Lizzy. If you work specialists you're not working Fin tiles, and vice versa. Especially if this is a rather small map where you may end up with just 10 cities before conquering someone.

On the other things you mentioned:
  • We're playing Exp in PB59 (random choice). The nerf takes away a lot, but cheap, 1-chop granaries will always be awesome.  But rather not so much on a tight map, where Imp rules the expansion phase.
  • Personally I'm not much of a fan of Pro, but a lot of people have picked it. It's mostly about the trade routes,  to give you a boost for critical early techs. It is better in a small field on a pangea, where you may not get as many (intercontinental) foreign routes, and in particular if you get the Great Lighthouse. Also loves Mercantilism,  moreso even with Sitting Bull whom you mentioned. It goes well with Spain, Celts, Carthage, although you have to take care and try not to be overly cute.
  • We really didn't want Mysticism in PB59,  with Emperor and huge map,  but here it should be totally fine. You may often be better off researching Agriculture instead of starting with it,  but if you want Egypt you pick Egypt. Any starting tech combo should be doable, although Byzantine/Arabia give some headaches, in exchange for awesome uniques.
Personally I really like CtH's Chm. Never played it due to availability (aside from lurking Amica in PB55), but you may want to give it some consideration.
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Hey! Welcome aboard.

It's less a love for Phi and more that I feel like it's the trait that got the biggest buff in CtH. I always thought it was a reasonable-but-not-top-tier trait, and so seeing it get buffed was a little bit shocking to me. It feels like it might be the best scaling trait, now? That and seeing Phi/Ind being added as a leader choice which seems like a combo that's high synergy (Poking around a bit, it looks like RTR added that, but I've never really poked into gameplay changing mods), it looked like an area of the game with a lot of changes compared to base BTS. That and buffs are more interesting to think about than nerfs, even if the Fin and Exp changes are probably higher impact changes. So, I've more been trying to wrap my head around how the changes would impact the game.

That is a good point about IND being useful in a small field as a chilling effect on other people wanting to build Wonders. The effects of the snake draft on picks (in terms of the "signals you pass" to go with a Magic the Gathering drafting phrase) is something that's new to me in a Civ context. I was thinking about it in terms of being turned off from Myst if there were prior Myst picks, but Ind would have a similar effect, true.

Sell me on Charismatic? I'd be potentially interested if it seemed like a strong Myst Civ made sense (or am I overvaluing Myst + Cha starting? Is researching Myst as 5th-6th tech still fine for CtH Charismatic? It seems like some of the power of the buff is making Monuments less onerous of a build to get border pops going) - and looking at Inca's changes, a cheaper granary is still quite powerful. And nerfed Fast Workers ... are still Fast Workers? Once again, I've never played either RTR or CTH - how much worse does Mobility vs 3 movement feel?
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(June 29th, 2021, 12:20)rekenner Wrote: And nerfed Fast Workers ... are still Fast Workers? Once again, I've never played either RTR or CTH - how much worse does Mobility vs 3 movement feel?

The movement is the same in heavy terrain (forest/hills), so you can still step onto them and immediately start working. What you can't do is move onto the resources two tiles away and start improving the same turn.
Playing: PB74
Played: PB58 - PB59 - PB62 - PB66 - PB67
Dedlurked: PB56 (Amicalola) - PB72 (Greenline)
Maps: PB60 - PB61 - PB63 - PB68 - PB70 - PB73 - PB76

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
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CHA is pretty weak if there is plenty of happiness around. Though Tarkeel's PB 60 map has few happiness resources. Monuments take forever to expand borders so CTH CHA monuments are still not good builds. I think Miguelito is off there. mischief Still not sure about PHI. Inca do seem enticing.
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(June 29th, 2021, 12:34)Tarkeel Wrote:
(June 29th, 2021, 12:20)rekenner Wrote: And nerfed Fast Workers ... are still Fast Workers? Once again, I've never played either RTR or CTH - how much worse does Mobility vs 3 movement feel?

The movement is the same in heavy terrain (forest/hills), so you can still step onto them and immediately start working. What you can't do is move onto the resources two tiles away and start improving the same turn.

Yeah, I suppose I should really just jam a start or two as India. I know what the change is, but getting a feel for it might just be something I have to do myself.
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Also, in the midst of tech issues being sorted out, ETA on starting location screenshot is THURSDAY!

We will have 2nd and 13th picks.
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(June 29th, 2021, 14:55)rekenner Wrote: Also, in the midst of tech issues being sorted out, ETA on starting location screenshot is THURSDAY!

Just curious, are you enthused because it's early or late?
Playing: PB74
Played: PB58 - PB59 - PB62 - PB66 - PB67
Dedlurked: PB56 (Amicalola) - PB72 (Greenline)
Maps: PB60 - PB61 - PB63 - PB68 - PB70 - PB73 - PB76

There are two kinds of people in the world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data
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I'm just enthused, really.
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If it's just about power, I can just tell that in past CtH games Phi has been picked little, and generally without much success. The best showing might be Cornflakes' Nebuchadnezzar in PB53? He played a crazy game there, although ultimately when the game was abandoned it seemed like he couldn't keep up with the others. In the current PB57 (RtR but Phi is the same afaik) we have 2 very strong players with Phi.
I do think it can be quite strong, but you have to be willing to make a big part of your game plan about GPs, and plan accordingly.

I really like Nebu because I think he has the potential for a very fun rollercoaster of a game, but it is a risky and demanding pick, having to balance expansion with wonders and required techs. Wanna go for it, or are you rather interested in something else?

The most popular CtH traits afaik have been Imp, Pro, and Fin (at least before the latest nerf). Games have been won, off the top of my head, by Mao, Justin, Vicky, Willem, Roosevelt.

Regarding Chm, civac is of course right that map lushness is a factor(or rather the food/luxury ratio). But the +2 happiness if nothing else allows for 2 extra whips per city, and I've yet to play a game where I couldn't use those. Cheap monument means you can easily chop one on the turn of founding a new city even before maths. Sure, monument culture is annoyingly slow, but if you're not Cre there are no faster options really. Library will generally take a 2pop whip, and religion is unreliable. If Tarkeel's PB60 map is a reference in any sense, a cheap methods for border pops would certainly be welcome.
Basically you get a mini Cre, but with extra happy and some military advantages which can become especially useful in the late game. But I admit this is all theorycrafting, I haven't actually played it.

Inca and India should both be excellent, in particular in giving a leader like Nebu a bit of a much needed early boost. They might require an early pick though, and then someone else might pick Ind before it comes back to you. As 2nd in pick order it's important to have a plan B, and C, for your first pick.
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(June 30th, 2021, 03:03)Miguelito Wrote: The most popular CtH traits afaik have been Imp, Pro, and Fin (at least before the latest nerf). Games have been won,  off the top of my head,  by Mao, Justin, Vicky, Willem, Roosevelt.

Because I have the data for this:

PB52 1.3 pindicator Carthage Fishing Mining Charlemagne IMP PRO
PB53 1.3 AdvancedStart The Black Sword Carthage Fishing Mining Mao EXP PRO Draw
PB53 1.3 AdvancedStart Commodore Ottomans The Wheel Agriculture Washington EXP CHA Draw
PB54 1.4 NoScore Miguelito Byzantium The Wheel Mysticism Justinian IMP SPI
PBEM 78 1.4 Lewwyn Spain Fishing Mysticism Charlemagne IMP PRO
PB55 1.5 Ruff Hi/civac Rome Fishing Mining Victoria FIN IMP
PB56 1.5 NobleHelium China Agriculture Mining Willem CRE FIN
PB58 1.6 Tarkeel Khmer Hunting Mining Roosevelt ORG IND

EDIT: Keep in mind that in the first game PB52 was drastically stronger (similar to FIN)
Mods: RtR    CtH

Pitboss: PB39, PB40PB52, PB59 Useful Collections: Pickmethods, Mapmaking, Curious Civplayer

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