Quote:Don't mind me. Just on my way to Boudica of the Maya in order to Holkan rush the living daylights out of someone...
So that's a no to oracling G3 longbows, then?
Damn it, Rusten. Why did you have to say the magic words? Ramses(?) of Celts would be delightful. Actually, now that I think about it, Mayan Boudica probably is second-team to Napoleon(!) of the Maya.
I absolutely agree with the scout move. I wrote the following before I saw your post. Just thinking out loud and coming to no conclusions.
The last time I actually talked about an opening was back in PB45, which coincidentally involved Rusten’s guiding light. More recently, I’ve just sort of presented my civ, but I might as well think out loud, so people know what little is going on in my head.
Assuming we settle in place, there are only 2.5 tiles we want to improve immediately. We need nets for the fish, a farm for the corn, and I’d be happy putting a cottage on the single riverside grassland. Other tiles will get cottages, but we’ve got so many natural 2food/2commerce tiles that it seems inefficient to put our earliest worker turns to cottaging.
After the corn, there’s nothing for our worker to do besides chop, so we need Bronze Working two turns after we finish the corn. I haven’t tested extensively, but I think any civ that starts with Mining can get to BW in time by going Agri->BW. I don’t think this works with a civ that has Agriculture but lacks Mining. So there are lots of civs that are viable. India would be great, but I just played an India game. Mali is always good. I am not at all joking about wanting to Holkan rush someone with Maya. Basically, anybody with Mining works.
The other way we can get Bronze Working in time is to delay our first worker by going Work Boat first. We can get a 7 turn Work Boat by switching to the Plains Hill when our borders expand. (Creative does not change the clock.) I haven’t really run out these lines, but this would probably require Fishing/Agriculture (America, Dutch), Fishing/Mining (Carthage/England/Portugal/Rome), or Agri/Mining (China). Of these, I’m most interested in America, Netherlands, or Portugal. China and Rome are strong but pretty cookie-cutter.
I actually don't know if this is base BtS behavior or not. I don't know if I've ever played a Mayan game. I was just testing out how quickly I could get a Woodsman II Holkan. (Turn 22 in case anyone was wondering. )
Edit: Confirmed base BtS behavior.
Edit 2: I guess I never noticed because I always had Copper connected, which enables Axemen, so both upgrade paths for the warrior (Axe/Spear) were available. Oh that makes me so sad.
Lo! I have thoughts. I love the pick phase. Everything’s so full of promise. None of the messy, difficult work yet. We’re last in the snake pick, which means we get to pick a full combo. On the other hand, we stand in danger of being sniped. (I really liked Zara Yakob, and he was picked first.) The list is in no particular order.
Nebuchadnezzar (Ind/Phi) of China
Hey look! A new leader! The plan here is as un-subtle as it could be. We tech to Forges; we Engineer-bulb Machinery; we kill someone with Cho-ko-nus. This gets added points for nostalgia. The last game Rusten and I played we also bulbed Engineering for a super-unit. While we didn’t win, lots of fun was had. :D
“Somebody” of Portugal
Neat. Another Machinery bulb plan. Same as above, but this time using Carracks as earlier Galleons to launch normal Crossbows at someone. Haven’t given this one too much thought, hence I didn’t think of a leader. The plan’s cute, but probably not something I want to invest in.
Lincoln (Phi/Cha) of Netherlands
The bulb plans keep on coming. This time we would bulb Astro. For some reason, the Dutch unique unit comes thousands of beakers earlier than everybody else’s Galleons. And it’s stronger. I would love to have a chance at demonstrating why this is broken, especially since I prevented Pindicator from showing off this plan in PB59.
Pericles (Phi/Cre) of Germany
Guess what? Another bulb plan! Germany gets its Grenadiers at Chemistry. Chemistry, as I found out in PB59, is very, very bulbable. (Spoilers for PB59 I guess, but nobody cares about how I bulbed in that game, I think.) This isn’t so much of a beeline as the other super-units. The plan would be to play a more “normal” game and try to squeeze out an edge with the surprise Chemistry bulb. If we end up winning with Knights, I won’t cry.
Louis (Ind/Cre) of Mali
Bet you thought this was going to be a bulb beeline, huh? Nope. Just the bog standard, very solid Mali coupled with Ind. I would like to play Creative this game, but I’m not married to the idea.
Hammurabi (Agg/Org) of Maya
Can’t forget about the Holkan rush. Hammurabi has a bit more staying power with Organized. Boudica is more fun and has a cheaper way of popping borders. Either way, we can get a barracks-promoted Combat1 Woody2 Holkan out on turn 25. The settler comes out on turn 31. I know Rusten doesn’t like dedicated rush plans, because they tend to sink a neighbor’s game rather than winning one’s own, but as a counter argument: turn 25 woody2 Holkan!
Mehmed (Exp/Org) of America
Last and perhaps least, I like the idea of producing a bunch of Guerilla 3 muskets. This combo would play truly standard. Nothing special about it at all, but I think it’s strong.
Some general notes on the start: if we start with Agriculture and not Mining, our worker will have one idle turn before Bronze Working comes in. I guess if we start Agri/Wheel, he can road. But I think that we absolutely need Mining if we want to go Worker first. (Which rules out Celts and Vikings, which breaks my heart.) If we have Fishing/Agriculture we can go Work Boat first. (If we have Fishing/Mining, we can go Work Boat first, but we’ll probably want to go Worker first with that combo.) I tested out a Work Boat first opening with Mehmed of America, and he gets a turn 29 settler with a size 3 cap and 1 worker+1 warrior.
Missing from my list above are any Imperialistic leaders and the Indian civ. These would be strong. I’m not opposed to them. Just trying to move out of my comfort zone.
My immediate thought is that I like China, Netherlands (but isn't Pericles better for this too?) and Germany.
I didn't know Germany gets grenadiers at chemistry, that's pretty sick. Why do they have an ugly rifleman model though? Yuck! Big turn-off.
China gets bonus points for the continuity.
East Indianmen are 6 strength with 4 cargo space and comes earlier?! Mother of God, what have you done Charriu?! We don't know how much water the map holds though.
(September 27th, 2021, 11:51)Rusten Wrote: My immediate thought is that I like China, Netherlands (but isn't Pericles better for this too?) and Germany.
I didn't know Germany gets grenadiers at chemistry, that's pretty sick. Why do they have an ugly rifleman model though? Yuck! Big turn-off.
China gets bonus points for the continuity.
East Indianmen are 6 strength with 4 cargo space and comes earlier?! Mother of God, what have you done Charriu?! We don't know how much water the map holds though.
Finally somebody notices something great about Germany. The "ugly rifleman model" was the best I found in a rather short time. If you find something better that suits it better I'm willing to change it.
The East Indiamen is on my radar, but so far none of the two Dutch players so far managed to capitalize on its UU.
You're right about Pericles being better than Lincoln. Let's go for Pericles.
I'm very conflicted about Netherlands vs. Germany. On the one hand, I want to be the reason the East Indiaman gets a deserved nerf, but you're right. We don't know how much water there is on this map. Knowing Commodore, there will be naval action.
I'd say both civs are roughly equal for style points. The grenadier thing is maybe a little cooler but significantly less useful.
Netherlands are Fishing/Agriculture, so we'd have to either eat a worker turn or start work boat first. It's possible that moving to the other plains hill reveals an easier worker-first opening.
Got to be honest. I'm hoping Mjmd takes a while to decide. Need to think.
I see we're almost up already, so if you're looking to pencil something in I like Pericles of the Dutch (because you wanted to play creative and I think it's better than Lincoln).
(September 27th, 2021, 13:56)Rusten Wrote: I see we're almost up already, so if you're looking to pencil something in I like Pericles of the Dutch (because you wanted to play creative and I think it's better than Lincoln).
xpost
Dope. Let's do it. I'm going to wait 10-15 minutes to send our choice in, just in case I cross-post with you.
Ramses(?) of Celts would be delightful. Actually, now that I think about it, Mayan Boudica probably is second-team to Napoleon(!) of the Maya. 
)
Mjmd picked the moment I posted this.