The More Things Change...

[Doc]

I never said inability. I hope that's not aimed at me.

Diablo 2 IS rocket science.

[Sirian]

It can be found in D2

I once came close to capturing D1 Rogue gameplay with a bow-using sorcie, but the hassles of the mlvl curve swallowed that one halfway through Nightmare.

As for the D1 Warrior... no. There's nothing even remotely close to the way I play a warrior. In D2, you're either not in danger or the dangers force you in and out of the fight ad nauseum.

There are seven reasons why the original experience cannot be matched in D2:

1) The potions
2) The player's speed advantage (and how monsters are designed to "balance" against it)
3) The desynch between visuals and actuals (a problem even in single player!
4) The enormous gap between bosses and normal monsters
5) The clvl-mlvl relationship
6) The item lottery
7) The skill system

Stuck in the past? Whatever you say, Doc. :wub:


- Sirian

[KingOfPain]

that you have not given D2 its fair shake because of your prejudicial point of view toward the game. Perhaps, it would be more accurate to say that you haven't given D2 a fair shake because of your limited experience with the new patch and/or your unwillingness to "really" try. This is not meant to be insulting, I am only guessing from the limited details you cared to supply.

At first glance, your pally seems to be spreading skill points thin to cover all that you want him to be able to do. But I am guessing they (Might, Charge, Thorns and Sanct) are just all Prereqs with +skill items when you say "low level". With Sanct being the exception, probably you were having trouble hitting things at some point and wanted Conv online. If you have more than 1 point invested in those prereqs, well, then you have wasted skill points.

I am sorry, but you are going at this build the wrong way, or did it on purpose (either way, my opening statement applies) ;p
For Holy Elemental builds physical damage should be low on your list although it is definitely gravy. Your choice of weapon (and other items) should have speed and AR as the main focus. As long as you hit, you might as well be using the Diggler dirk, a lowly unique dagger with ITD. As that goes, it is also the weapon of choice when venturing into the CS and hopefully you don't get yourself one hit killed when IM'd.... if you didn't pump Str to boost Phy Dmg, you would not kill yourself too fast when those damned knights cast IM on you. Strength more than needed to equip items is not the best place to spend stats.

Ice Blink used to be my favorite armor and a nice choice for a Freezer. It still has its uses as long as you stay close to the mlvl/clvl curve.

But, this is where things break down fast. A Defiance merc, and you are only wearing a Russet Armor Ice Blink? A Might merc would have been a good choice if you are concerned with Phy dmg. A Blessed Aim merc would be the best choice, for a Holy Elemental pally it only matters if you hit or not hit, not how hard you hit.
Russet Blinky is only about ~400 DR...hmmm.... One of my pally at lvl 88, wears a Hellforge Guardian Angel plate with 1400ish DR with a high lvl Defiance merc (granted that I have not yet twinked it with other high DR items, but they are decent DR hat, boots, belt and shield) still can get hit by hell1 monster around 20% of the time, according to the LCS.

I am also puzzled when your then lvl 59 Freezer joined my then lvl 50 bow weilding Shocker in NM4, when you voiced my Shocker was going too fast for you, that we are out of sync. I still can't figure out how a bow weilding Shocker at 50 can out pace a properly built Zealing Freezer at 59 in NM4 when you are at the proper clvl while I am up to 10 lvls behind mlvl. And both builds are hardly item dependent, but none the less, your pally looks to have all the items he needs. Hmm, maybe it is the way I like to play. I move to where I can get to (after a fair sampling of the monsters in an area)... Maybe it was the seemingly no-fear factor that I seek Diablo at 50, maybe it was the illusion that I was killing monsters fast? I am saying it's only an illusion that I was killing fast because you probably under estimated the power of a Freezer and a Shocker traveling together. Monsters I shot at would have been treated with many doses of high lvl HFreeze and Hshock already by the time my slow firing speed hits one. Top that with a lethal hit that delivers a full charge.... well, it can look like I was one hit killing everything.

What puzzles more is

I'm safe against low numbers, dead against high numbers.

Isn't that a good thing? I know you are not saying it should be like the WW baba of the pass that it doesn't matter how many monsters he activates he can just charge (WW) right in and enjoy the extra leech baits. I just don't understand why you would complain about it. It is a Good Thing.

I really can't comment on the rest of your post since I totally disagree with some points (most glaringly, the Gap), and some I just don't understand how you came to the conclusions - I know, they are your opinions based on your playing experiences and can be just as valid as any others. But, it seems we are playing different versions of the same game.


KoP

[WarBlade]

Originally posted by Sirian@Sep 3 2004, 02:45 PM
Diablo is not rocket science. My comments have nothing to do with my ability (or apparently, in the estimation of some, my inability) to succeed at the game. Rather, the issue is how much I enjoy it, or not, and looking at why.


- Sirian

Hey, I never cast doubt on your ability to succeed at the game. I merely made the observation that your posts indicate that you're most likely applying the choices of pre-expansion game play to something that has had several major revisions since then.

As to "why" you're not enjoying the game, I'm inclined to think that tackling the issue of how to build Paladins (or whatever other class) to better accomodate 1.10 conditions would lend itself to enjoyment, but that's just my opinion. KoP shed some light in the area of your Paladin build in that regard, although there's a LOT more to this kind of character than even that post speaks of.

[Sirian]

I am sorry, but you are going at this build the wrong way

What an odd remark. If you were not aiming to be insulting, you failed numerous times. The same happened in that incident you cited, which is why I left the game.

As long as you hit, you might as well be using the Diggler dirk, a lowly unique dagger with ITD.

A Diggler hasn't dropped for me. Does that surprise you?

Are you seriously suggesting (as Doc did) that playing untwinked is "going at it the wrong way"?


There has always been a min/max dichotomy to Diablo variantism. Sure, take a bunch of things off the table, but whatever's left, exploit it to the max! Well, I don't always do that.

ITD? It's in there, but is it fun? If I'm not using it, I haven't "planned" well enough and I'm "going about it the wrong way"?


My character is not having trouble hitting anything. His initial hit rate is over 70% and he's using a Holy Thunder divine scepter. Nothing better ever dropped, so I fell back on the runeword. Never used it before, but it seems plenty good enough. Fast (strange that you thought I might not realize the benefits of higher attack rate), good stats, and the one Eth involved means better hit ratio after the first hit. There's fire and poison damage on it, but it's not enough to deal with cold/lit immune bosses, so the physical damage is what carried those couple of fights. As for armor, 400DR on armor isn't shabby for entering Hell. Best I saw was one 700DR ornate plate costing a million cash at Larzuk at the end of NM. I bought it for my merc, but the server crashed and reset me back to before I bought it. Oh well, so much for that. My merc's wearing a 550ish DR Chaos Plate. Wearing that myself wouldn't get me enough benefit to be worth the swap. Besides, with the merc dropping like a stone at almost every boss, what the merc has doesn't matter because I've been fighting and playing without him most of the time.

So we are back to the twinking question again? Why haven't I taken an MF Sorcie and gone out and found "proper" gear for my poor Pally?


I could bypass any bosses that pop with the "wrong" combinations for my character's build if I want to avoid tedium, but that's a slippery slope. It's the one area where full clear is the harder path, to have to deal with all the combinations rather than picking and choosing. The boss combos aren't the issue, though. As I said, the problem there is the regen they added, which seems ENTIRELY pointless to me. What? Carry PMH on second weapon? What's the point of that? (Blizz has always done more than its share of mindless things in this game -- break AR, but give you ITD to kludge past it, break regen but give you PMH to disable it. The list of mind boggling design stupidity is long and I won't belabor it any further here).

There's nothing "wrong" with my character. He's plenty capable. I simply crossed the line from "not in danger" to "in more danger than the potion rate can account for" and was immediately displeased with the impact of that on how the game had to be played.

OK, it's as simple as this: if you close to melee range, you take hits and damage at rate X. You can change X to another value. You can raise it by going with less gear. You can lower it by going with more gear. You can raise or lower it by manipulating the clvl-mlvl curve, speeding ahead or lagging around. If the whole point of the game is to keep X below a certain rate, let's call it Y, at which the potions and/or life leech can restore your health, well then how complex is that? Is that really something folks think takes a great deal of cleverness and skill to do?

I could have saved myself a lot of time by going with worse gear. Run out there naked and without a weapon and realize halfway through A1 Normal that a part of the gameplay that will corral me into doing unfun things is still firmly entrenched in the game engine. But I just didn't THINK that much about it. And I was curious to see what had changed in the patch.


As I said to Doc, Diablo is not rocket science. This is a simple game with simple concepts that happens to have a truckload of loopholes and trivialities that can keep one occupied for years if he is content to explore them all. He replied with the notion that it IS rocket science. Uh... OK. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I am sorry, but you are going at this build the wrong way

You and Doc are still playing the game almost daily, four years after its release. You guys enjoy it, and more power to you for that. I'm sorry if my critique here intruded on that. That was not my intent.


- Sirian

[Doc]

Me? I stop playing for large chunks of time only to return. Why? I don't know.

There is a lot of science to D2. It's not as simple as one might think. Yes, at heart it's a point and click killer... But to make variants work, or to maximize kill potential, it takes serious planning.

I stated in one post you don't have to twink... But you do have to obey the mlvl curve. Most of the issues you state as a problem would go away if you did this.

I for one, still do not totally understand your potion beef, as it's never been a problem for me.

If you pump vit, it makes potions work better. Once you break certain vit breakpoints, you get critical healing, where it is not a slow process, but, a large instant healing for a sizeable chunk of life, followed by a slow but steady refill. If one of my 200 vit characters drinks a super healing potion, and, they have, say, 800 life or so with charms and gear, they get 400 hit points restored instantly on the spot and the rest slowly fill. A LOT of people are not aware of this feature. The lower your total vit score is the worse a healing potion is for you. Slow restoration rate, and can actually heal you less then the stated amount on a potion. Say a potion says it heals you for 200 points. At 100 vitality, you have a 25% chance to get a "critical heal." I think. It's been a while, so the numbers might be off. Critical heal goes off and heals you of half your total life amount instantly, and slowly but steadily restores the rest. That's why I like 200 vit minimum. 50% chance for critical heal. Makes potions work just fine. I jam a button and either it works or it don't. If not, and I need healing, I jam the button again. It usually works. And it makes reds behave just like a rejuvination potion. One of many rocket science bits. Melee characters get a lot of benifits from this, but, so do other classes.

[KingOfPain]

What an odd remark. If you were not aiming to be insulting, you failed numerous times. The same happened in that incident you cited, which is why I left the game.

Would you care to let me in on what I have said to insult you in that game. You got me totally clueless but curious here.

A Diggler hasn't dropped for me. Does that surprise you?

Not at all, but I am surprised you didn't understand that "said item" was only used as an example for its ITD and the low phy dmg on it, as an example that it is not a rare item, and need not be a rare item. If one think of using an item with such attributes, it does come in yellow and blue. A type of item that you could have found or bought a hundred times over. So don't give me that "A Diggler hasn't dropped for me. Does that surprise you?"

Are you seriously suggesting (as Doc did) that playing untwinked is "going at it the wrong way"?

You don't seriously think you can pin that one on me, do you? If you meant that as a joke, we are all laughing :laugh:

There has always been a min/max dichotomy to Diablo variantism. Sure, take a bunch of things off the table, but whatever's left, exploit it to the max! Well, I don't always do that.

Often, but not always. And I dare say no one around here always do that. You don't either, so what?

ITD? It's in there, but is it fun?

Is it? if it is not fun, and, if hitting only 70% of the time is fun for you, what are we complaining about here?

If I'm not using it, I haven't "planned" well enough and I'm "going about it the wrong way"?
...As for armor, 400DR on armor isn't shabby for entering Hell.

I said, "I am sorry, but you are going at this build the wrong way, OR DID IT ON PURPOSE (either way, my opening statement applies) ;p" Did you miss that? And, as I also said "....I am only guessing from the limited details you cared to supply." So, I do know you are not sharing info that might made your post moot.

400 DR IS pretty shabby when you sacrificed the benefits of a Might/BA merc and choose to go for a Def merc. What's your chance to be hit, high 50% (give or take 10% depending on your lvl of HShield)? Perhaps you can share that info with us so I know next time a Def merc is the way to go with such low DR.

So we are back to the twinking question again? Why haven't I taken an MF Sorcie and gone out and found "proper" gear for my poor Pally?

Strawman! Hmmm, that was a sharp 180 degree turn *whiplash* Where have I mentioned twinking? I have said "And both builds are hardly item dependent, but none the less, your pally looks to have all the items he needs." And you proved my statement to be correct by claiming you have decent DR, maxed block, maxed resists and decent to hit, and again you said

There's nothing "wrong" with my character. He's plenty capable.

Of cousre not, it is your character and only you know what suits the way you play best. How your pally is built, and even how capable your character is, is really irrelevant (except to serve as a point of reference) to the focus of your post. We are only trying to uderstand how you came to your conclusions. You are judging the game by one character build, one you've placed many restrictions on, restrictions you chose without regards to what you expect your character to do.

Gosh, I know I am not defending Bliz here, the game is far from perfect... but there is still a load of fun to be had. I can probably match you rant for rant about this game, but. Many problems you see with the game can be remedied with one thing or another, a certain playing stlye, use certain item attributes, Stats and Skills allocation, employ certain tactics, a different build or a different class altogether.

You are judging the game by one character, one you've placed many restrictions on, restrictions you chose without regards to what you expect your character to do. Your assessment is, at best, a evaluation of the way you play THIS pally...

This is an open forum, a place to exchange ideas and voice their opinions. Your critique does not intrude, as much as anyone has the right to voice his opposing view. Both are welcomed.

You have made a couple of contradicting statements, or so it seemed. We are only trying to understand where you are coming from :P


KoP

[ShadowHM]

Hi Sirian

I only got to meet you inside a couple games before I scampered to the cottage, and I am sorry to know that the game could not hold you.

You got all kinds of commentary back already on other ways you could have built your Paladin. For myself, I generally suck at mêlée build anyway, but occasionally I feel compelled to make another one for a change in my usual patterns. The last Paladin I made functioned a lot like a D1 Warrior (although his Rogue companion never shot him in the back). He was a straight Avenger, with the synergies all pumped. If you would like to give him a whirl to see how he feels, let me know. (I don't think he has expired yet, and he was in Act 2 Hell.)

I know that there are all too many ways to build a Paladin, and that they all changed rather dramatically with the v1.10 patch. That Avenger was an experiment to see if the oft-prescribed Conviction could be eschewed and, since I didn't finish the game with him, I still don't know the answer.

I am sorry that I won't be seeing you in D2 games. Best wishes on the other gaming fronts. :war:

[Occhidiangela]

The last Paladin I made functioned a lot like a D1 Warrior (although his Rogue companion never shot him in the back.

Will the sniping never end? :D

A Rogue

[ShadowHM]

Occhi, my friend ...

I played Rogues in D1. The list of those who got those midnight-blue feathers in their backs was long. There need be no testimonials, I hope, but between de-synch and those durned tele-killing warriors, I managed to feather the backs of all too many of those I called my friends. You may have been the Rogue with a Heart™ but I was just a Rogue. ;-)

And, on that note, will you be joining the merry band of Friendly Fire Naked Heroes when you get back?

Addendum: a belated thank you to Thecla. I seldom ventured into the wild DSF forum hosted by Blizzard back in those days. But I did post a question once: I seldom ventured out in public games, but on one foray I got the very good luck to meet up with a couple of skilled tele-killing warriors (SirDieALot and Joram, IIRC). The game was fast and furious and most enjoyable. Later I posted a query, asking if there was any sort of convention for choosing targets when foraying with such company. I got lambasted with rants about Rogues and feathers in the back with one exception - Thecla, who posted a useful suggestion list and a general pooh-poohing of those who had ranted. Thanks You alleviated much guilt at the time, as my confidence level had sunk after all the ranting.