Posts: 2,744
Threads: 18
Joined: Feb 2013
It's up to you, it's your game! Either one would be fine.
Posts: 3,924
Threads: 19
Joined: May 2011
Decided to go with Tokugawa. Very fast Fish + a fish worth more food! It's like starting the game with a Lighthouse on the fish!
Posts: 3,924
Threads: 19
Joined: May 2011
Ha! Seems Gawdzak agrees with Boudica. Anyway, our viable Civs...
India (Mysticism/Mining): Poor first techs, but we get the Fast Worker + Production bonus, I think with this opening India might not be in the cards though.
Japan (Fishing/The Wheel): Samurai is a good UU, though not great: Kind of like the Chariot with 2 First Strikes but it comes at a point in the game where First Strikes are more likely to matter. It also gets Drill I so you can promote up the Drill line to survive collateral, however this is not all that useful. Shale Plant is one the worst UB in many aspects though. The Wheel is a good starting tech though as it will allow us an early Pottery and we have very cottagable land: A starting tech path of Agriculture -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> Pottery is very possible. It would also be amusing to have Tokugawa of Japan.
Carthage (Fishing/Mining): I've never been a big fan of Numidians and the UB is only okay, though it is better with Wharfs because of the fact that you want Compass earlier now, and Fishing/Mining is one of our better tech choices, however I don't think we will be picking Carthage unless many other options are taken.
England (Fishing/Mining): Redcoats are very good with their Gunpowder bonus, but they do come late. Same with Stock Exchanges except they come a little earlier. In addition if someone takes Imperialistic I expect them to go for England for the synergy. One of our better options though.
Portugal (Fishing/Mining: UU IS A BOAT LOL etc. Feitoras are worse now with Wharfs, though you can combine them for a never expiring +2 to water tiles, except that will come very late and Feitoras are too expensive to be worth it.
Rome (Fishing/Mining): Perhaps our most interesting choice! With not needing to pick Aggressive as Rome any more, the option is held open to pick Rome and not be offensive with it 100% of the time, but rather just do so if you have a very nearby neighbor or something. In addition Praetorians provide excellent early game defense. The Forum doesn't suck but it is only okay: Imperialistic/Philosophical leaders might enjoy it, though (Yes, I know the Forum's benefit goes down with Philo, but stacking them to make your GPP speed go faster still seems good). Starting techs are good.
America (Agriculture/Fishing): An Agriculture/Fishing start is possible. America still has the useless Navy SEAL UU (Well, okay, they're actually pretty good in the late late game), but the new Trading Post UB is pretty good, each Grocer now essentially also gives a base 4.5 GPT + 3 GPP Merchant, so it is now viable but an unlikely pick, moreso a pick if many other good civs go down.
Dutch (Agriculture/Fishing): It's like Portugal but even worse.
Native America (Agriculture/Fishing): None of the unique stuff here is very good.
Babylon (The Wheel/Agriculture): It is also possible to not start with Fishing and just research it, however this will delay the boat by 1T (You can build WBs without Fishing now, so it is just a matter of researching it). However Babylon's unique traits are not worth doing this. It should also be noted The Wheel + Agriculture has the same beaker value as Fishing + Mining (100).
China (Agriculture/Mining): Usually China is always a choice, however in this case the start is just plain slower than Fishing + Mining and the unique traits are not enough to help that.
Egypt (The Wheel/Agriculture): War Chariots might still be worth it to go with this over one of the Fishing/Mining civs and the Obelisk actually isn't all that bad, especially if you can found a religion.
France (The Wheel/Agriculture): Salons still suck, but the Musketeer is a good UU as it can provide stack protection with Knights and very valuable city defense thanks to 2 moving. They're an okay option.
Ottoman (The Wheel/Agriculture): Probably the go-to Wheel/Agriculture civ. Janissaries are pretty good, Hammams are pretty good, Hammams are especially good since we are not Charismatic (Though Charismatic + Hammams means you can avoid happiness for a long time by going up to Mathemtics for Currency etc). One of the few civs whose UU and UB are both good and come early enough to be useful. We should keep them in mind.
Finally while not something I particularly advocate we could go with Spain (Mysticism/Fishing), Sumeria (Mysticism/Agriculture) or the Incans (Mysticism/Agriculture), trading a bit of speed on the early path for a great chance at landing a religion at the end of it (IE Agriculture -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Religion). I do not think this is a particularly good idea, but it is an option if many good Civilizations are taken by the time we pick due to our second to last pick.
I feel the primary Civilizations we should look at, in no particulary order, are: India, Japan, Rome, Ottoman, England. The other good ones mostly come into play if those 5 are taken.
Posts: 3,924
Threads: 19
Joined: May 2011
Never mind on Egypt, it just got taken. Strange to take Egypt before all the juicy leaders still around, especially since Egypt is nerfed.
Posts: 3,924
Threads: 19
Joined: May 2011
Napoleon is an odd pick. Charismatic is good, but Organized doesn't seem all that good and there's no special synergy I see there, why not Hannibal or Cyrus or something?
Posts: 3,924
Threads: 19
Joined: May 2011
Willem van Oranje is still a good pick, neither Financial nor Creative was massively nerfed, it also helps let us see what one of the best leaders look like now that he has been a bit nerfed. Russia is a perplexing Civilization choice from Seven because of the fact it probaly would have been available to him later, however the Cossack is a fairly good UU and the Research Institute could be pretty good. Charlemagne is essentially the new Joao II and it will be interesting to see if this strategy has been improved due to the double speed Markets/Banks for financing the empire.
Posts: 2,744
Threads: 18
Joined: Feb 2013
Updated Tech Costs, adjusted with map settings:
Agriculture 46
Hunting 46
Fishing 60
Mining 60
The Wheel 75
Mysticism 75
Archery 75
Priesthood 75
Pottery 107
Meditation 107
Masonry 107
Polytheism 140
Animal Husbandry 140
Sailing 140
Bronze Working 174
Writing 174
Monotheism 174
Org makes sense; it's on Huge with Medium Distance Maintenance. Although this means maintenance is not as bad as toroidal, it will be a significant factor.
Posts: 3,924
Threads: 19
Joined: May 2011
It seems to me like the commerce benefit of Financial would outweigh the maintanence saving. I could be wrong, though.
Posts: 3,924
Threads: 19
Joined: May 2011
You happen to have any thoughts on specific civilizations I mentioned, Wetbandit? I'd be interested in your input.
Posts: 2,744
Threads: 18
Joined: Feb 2013
I like England and Rome, probably in that order, don't feel that strongly about it. I don't think Japan is good at all, forces research of an extra tech (Agri-Mining-BW) before chopping comes online. And that worker is not going to have much to do, it looks like. Also, Samurai are not great because we'd rather build Knights. Moreover, Knights ignore the benefit of a Samurai when attacking, so I don't think they are actually that useful in their era.
Fishing can be finished by the time the WB can net on T7, provided you settle in place and fudge the micro. China is probably third, just because Agri/Mining is not that much worse and the UU is great.
I don't think India will make it back, but Fast Workers? I probably couldn't turn it down given the chance. Probably worth simming out.
|
