Kuro's Bizarre Adventure (Kuro spoiler thread)

[Kuro]

[Kuro]

I'll be discussing my thoughts on changes, the game and more shortly. For those who have not looked at the Tides of War changes, or for ease of looking at them closer to my post, here they are:

Traits
FIN: +1c on tiles with 3c or more
EXP: Double speed granaries, +2 health (no harbor or worker bonuses)
CRE: only +1 culture in all cities (still +100% production of library, theater and colosseum)
SPI: unchanged
ORG: unchanged
IND: unchanged
PHI: +150% gpp, double speed universities
IMP: +100% GG points, +50% settler production, and double speed markets and banks
CHA: +3 happy in all cities, -25% XP requirements (no happiness from monuments or broadcast towers)
AGG: Removed, replaced with AGRICULTURAL (AGR): +1f on tiles with 4f or more
PRO: Removed, replaced with PRODUCTIVE (PRO): +1h on tiles with 4h or more, +50% worker production, +50% workboat production

Civilizations
Inca: Terrace loses culture, requires Agriculture instead of Pottery.
India: Fast Workers cost 75h, not 60.
Egypt: War Chariot is a chariot replacement with 2 first strikes.
Mali: Skirmisher is a 4 strength archer replacement with zero first strikes.
Sumeria: Starting techs changed from Agriculture/Wheel to Agriculture/Mysticism.
Zulu: Impi is a spear replacement with 50% withdraw chance.
America: UB is the Frontier Post, a Grocer replacement with 1 free merchant.
Germany: UU is now the Riesengarde, a Grenadier replacement with 14 strength.
Russia: UB is the Research Institute, now a university replacement with 1 free scientist.

Techs
Agriculture & Hunting cost 40.
Mining & Fishing cost 50.
Mysticism & Wheel cost 60.
(Previously, Fishing was 40, Mysticism was 50, and Agriculture was 60.)
Metal Casting Cost reduced to cost of Alphabet (from 450 down to 300).

Units
War Elephants reduced to 7 strength.
Swordsmen gain the Combat 1 promotion instead of +10% city attack. Praetorian is now just a 7-strength swordsman.
Scouts require no tech (so all players start with one) and have 1 move. They gain +1 movement point at Hunting.
Workboats require no tech. (You still need fishing to work water tiles.)

Wonders
Great Lighthouse: only +1 trade route per coastal city, not +2.
Colossus: +2c to water tiles only in that city.

Buildings
New building: Wharf. Requires Compass. Costs 80h. +3xp for naval units, +1c from water tiles.

Wonder/Building Resource Doublers
All wonders/buildings that had +100% production with a specific resource now only have +50% production with that resource.

Corporations
Sid’s Sushi food per resource reduced from 0.5 to 0.2, and culture per resource reduced from 2 to 1, and maintenance per resource reduced by half.

Nukes
ICBM cost increased from 500 to 1500.
Tactical Nuke cost increased from 250 to 750.
Nukes never create fallout on tiles containing strategic resources.

Naval Mechanics
Blockade range reduced to 1.
Circumnavigation mechanic is removed.
“Naval Initiative” mechanic: Naval units that attack with their first movement point from a water tile get +15% attack.
New Naval Promo: Vigilance I. +20% defense.
New Naval Promo: Vigilance II. Req. Vig I. +20% defense.

Espionage
Active missions removed.
Great Spy bomb value reduced by half: 3000 to 1500.

[wetbandit]

Checking in, played a game with Toku and started on a mess of Flood Plains. AGRI plus FP is somewhat ludicrous.

Edit: Updating with settings.

MAP SETUP
* Pitboss, normal speed.
* Barbarians on.
* No vassal states, no tribal villages, no random events, unrestricted leaders.
* Edited torusland map with scattered improvements.
* More info provided by mapmaker to be added.

RULES/GUIDELINES OF PLAY
* No talking. (You can't communicate with other players about the game. No using text in-game to send messages. You can still do in-game diplo.)
* No city trading/gifting of any sort.
* Anyone who does annoying things with the turn timer will be taken outside and shot, then made to wear a dunce cap, then brought back inside and shot again.
* The goal of the game is not just to strive for sole victory but also simply to improve your civilization, explore how the game works, and survive. Not every nation will be America, but they are still worth something! (mischief)
* We will try to maintain a brisk turn pace.
* No smurfs, please! Does this really need to be said? Well it's said.
* We will do our best to have fun and help our fellow players have fun.

Since we got several new player signups I'm going to elaborate a bit more on "doing annoying things with the turn timer". Due to pitboss turns being simultaneous, there are issues when two players are in a war, or trying to settle the same spot, or something like that. The basic rule is this:
* When it's relevant, don't play twice before the opponent can move once. Don't double move your opponent.
This is difficult to make hard and fast rules about so we rely a lot on good sportsmanship and vague guidelines. Here are some more guidelines:
* Try to play your turns consistently and at a convenient time for other players.
* End your turn as soon as is convenient for you, signaling that you are done moving units.
* If you want to declare war, try to play in the same order relative to your opponent on the turn before the war as you plan to play on the turn of war.
* If you want the second half of the turn but you'd have to wait a long time for your opponent to play, please consider taking the first half of the turn instead, even if this isn't ideal for you.
* If it's your opponent's half of the turn, don't take any in-game actions.
* If it seems useful to do so, you can make an exception to the communication rules and coordinate with your war opponent about when you each play.
* If you are unsure about any of these things, you can ask in your thread for lurker guidance.


Map is Prince/Large (? to confirm on next log in); Normal Speed, Medium Distance Maintenance.

[Kuro]

Checking in, played a game with Toku and started on a mess of Flood Plains. AGRI plus FP is somewhat ludicrous.

AGRI + FP is pretty great, free food resources everywhere or you can convert 'em into cottages, the value!

[Kuro]

Since I am working on a longer Trait roundup, I thought I'd do something shorter to put something out and comment on the Civilization changes and my initial opinions on them.

Civilizations
Inca: Terrace loses culture, requires Agriculture instead of Pottery.

Seems pretty weaksauce now, you don't really delay Pottery for a long time anyway because you want cottages, so you're not going to get all that many Granaries out before you normally would anyway. In addition, I feel Expansive is now one of the worse traits in the game due to the removal of double speed Workers from it. I would have rather seen something like just +1 culture, or maybe saving like 60% food or something? With Agri/Mysticism not something to target, Inca is basically Quechua rush civ now.

India: Fast Workers cost 75h, not 60.

Not a very big nerf: A Productive Fast Worker still comes out before a non-Productive Worker, albeit not by too much, so you basically just lose some time against other Productive opponents, which is made up by the movement speed. Biggest thing is it means you cannot play a non-Productive India. Tokugawa of India is pretty crazy.

Egypt: War Chariot is a chariot replacement with 2 first strikes.

I'd need to play around to see if the 2 first strikes is all that worth it but I'd guess not. Egypt still useful because Agri + Wheel is fine, Obelisk is useful and the new War Chariot isn't bad but I doubt it will get picked often.

Mali: Skirmisher is a 4 strength archer replacement with zero first strikes.

Fine fix for Duel maps, doesn't affect Mali much. It's arguable whether Mali is boosted or nerfed by the MC cost reduction: You get 150 beakers less value in Oracling, but now you can more reasonably get a quick Metal Casting without Oracle, which is a viable option to expand faster.

Sumeria: Starting techs changed from Agriculture/Wheel to Agriculture/Mysticism.

Fine, means we probably won't see Summeria all that much, but it doesn't change all that much TBH: The biggest issue is how it messes with the tech path rather than cost.

Zulu: Impi is a spear replacement with 50% withdraw chance.

The saddest change for me: The Impi is a wonderfully unique unit in BTS and the 50% withdraw chance, while very good, just doesn't feel as fun to me, I love my 2-move impis.

America: UB is the Frontier Post, a Grocer replacement with 1 free merchant.

Pretty good UB all things considered, it gives 4.5 GPT for free by itself, though I do wish that either Imperialistic also boosted Grocers or this was a Market because that'd be a fun and strong combo, America could see any play at all with a good UB. It's still slightly late, though, Fishing/Agriculture not bad techs after all.

Germany: UU is now the Riesengarde, a Grenadier replacement with 14 strength.

Germany's still not all that useful of a civ but the Risengarde is a good unit, slaugtering rifles while remaining useful against all other units of it's era save the Machine Gune. Germany still not worth it.

Russia: UB is the Research Institute, now a university replacement with 1 free scientist.

Actually very interesting! The Cossack isn't amazing, but it doesn't suck either, it just comes a bit last. The new Research Institute is mostly interesting for it's grand Philosophical synergy: Not only will this halve the cost of the Research Institute, but it should increase the Scientist's GPP production to 7.5 (Rounded to 7, yes?). Quite a large poon to Great Person production, roughly on par with The Great Library (8 Great Scientist GPP). I don't think this is something we would do, the boost comes a bit late, but I do find it fascinating and a fun way of fitting with Peter.

[Krill]

Kuro/wetbandit

[Kuro]

Interesting start! And with the second pick...well, if GermanJoJo doesn't take Tokugawa, we blatantly are, especially as I show the Trait Round Up!

A quick note before I do though: I did not discuss the Praetorian change in my last post, as it was not in the Civ change lineup. Praetorians are now 7 STR Swordsmen with Combat I (All Swords have Combat I). At first this seems like a nerf, as the Praetorian's raw power is weakened, but I actually feel this is a buff. This is because Rome always needed Aggressive before for Shock promos, otherwise Axes were too much of a pain, but with Combat I now they can get Shock AND you can choose a non-Aggressive trait (Since Aggressive no longer exists). The ability to choose a second trait over Aggressive, IMO, outstrips the reduction in power.

Traits

AGG: Removed, replaced with AGRICULTURAL (AGR): +1f on tiles with 4f or more

Let's start with the new traits and that means starting with Agricultural, which like Financial gives no building bonus and only one ability. That's because the ability is CRAZY! Food is the lifeblood of the early game and also determines your potential later on, due to both growth rate and max size, so a food buff is huge. Not only that, but it allows you to settle cities in ways you couldn't: Food resources giving more food might lead you to being able to, say, cottage plains that would otherwise be unworkable or further amp up the production center city by giving it more food to work high production tiles. It also helps Slavery: You'll grow up faster than before, so you can whip faster, which causes you to begin regrowing faster AND regrow faster. In addition, you can grow your cities BIG faster than non-Agricultural civs. If the game somehow managed to still be up for grabs when Biology rolls around, you can suddenly make 5F tiles wherever there's irrigated grassland.

Personally, for this game, I am only interested in traits that are radically changed or new, and Agricultural is obviously one of the new ones. The leader I expected to be gone by my pick was Tokugawa, who combines Agricultural and Productive...but we have pick #2 and Toku wasn't picked first, so there's a great chance to get him (Then we just need India to boot, lol!). The other choice I'm considering is Boudica because I have found Agricultural/Charismatic to be a very strong combination (On Monarch, you get a BASE 8 happiness in capital/7 elsewhere! You can balloon up crazily to high cities, especially if you have any happiness, running a bunch of cottages and other tiles in addition to growing faster with Agricultural, and then simply 4 and 5 whip pop stuff like Markets and Forges outside of production cities). The biggest reason to go with Tokugawa for this start over Boudica is that this is a pretty crazy Productive start: We're gonna get that 50% Worker/Work Boat bonus on a start that could use both and the Plains Hill is a 5 hammer tile, though sadly the Grassland Hills are not Plains Hills. On the other hand Boudica's 8 happiness base gives us a very strong capital to just build up: We can work 6 cottages, the food and add in hills as wanted or any combination of them with a large food surplus. Right now I am leaning Tokugawa, but I want to give more thought to Boudica as well.

PRO: Removed, replaced with PRODUCTIVE (PRO): +1h on tiles with 4h or more, +50% worker production, +50% workboat production

Productive is the other Tides of War exclusive trait: As seen above, it has the good ol' Expansive 50% Worker, but also 50% Work Boat and a big bonus to tiles with 4H or more. Personally, I feel this trait is stronger than BTS Expansive, though I'm guessing this will be a controversial thought as double speed Granaries are pretty bombin'. However, the production boost is very strong with this trait: Plains Hills becoming 5 hammers makes them extremely strong hammer tiles, especially when you combine it with the 50% Worker production which means that you are getting a minimum of 6 hammers by working a Plains HIll + City Tile, enough for 3 bonus hammers from the ability: That's a 7T Worker on Normal alone and 6T if you can find a single other hammer anywhere. It's also a 4T-3T Work Boat. The 50% Work Boat production is also very potent with chopping as a non-Mathematics chop will now complete a Work Boat from scratch (20 hammers from chopping + 10 bonus hammers). This is not only strong but adds to the versatility of the trait by making it also supremely good if you start with sea food resources. The hammers made up by this will likely be close to the Granary hammers, so it mostly depends on if you value the Granaries being out a bit faster or the other benefits Productive offers like extremely strong production centers. At Chemistry or with Caste System + Guilds, Productive leaders can plop down 5H tiles on any Plains tile they have via Workshops. I doubt this will be useful in MP, but it is fun in Single Player and makes Productive/Philosophical an interesting combo. As mentioned, Tokugawa is my ideal Productive leader. Qin Shi Huang is also interesting as he is an even better pure Wonder Whore than BTS Bismarck. One could combine this with Expansive for BTS Expansive Plus, but as I feel Expansive is a fairly poor trait now I wouldn't do it. (You are essentially getting a trait that is only +50% Granary speed)

FIN: +1c on tiles with 3c or more

Very minor nerf, but with Agricultural and Charismatic's buffs I feel it is enough to punch Financial out of first. The biggest issue it makes is speed: Non-Riverside Cottages will take 30T to give a Financial bonus, Riverside Cottages 10T, as opposed to the instant benefits from before: This is a loss of a lot of commerce in the long run and also makes it not as good in the early game. Still very potent though because it activates at a lower threshold than Agricultural or Productive and the extra commerce is pretty big. Pairing Financial up with Charismatic can help make up the speed by allowing you to grow bigger and start working more cottages earlier: Agricultural can also do this.

EXP: Double speed granaries, +2 health (no harbor or worker bonuses)

I feel Expansive is quite a bad trait now. Double Speed Granaries are quite nice, but they're not enough to make a full trait on their own, and that is basically all Expansive is now. Think of it this way: Expansive was below FInancial before, Financial has had at least one trait (Agricultural) I would say is better than it and only a small nerf, the traits under it all remain largely unchanged (Cultural's nerf is extremely small), have received big buffs or are unchanged. I feel that Expansive should get some kind of buff to it in future installments, even if it is just something small like bringing back the Harbor bonus (Why was this taken out???). By contrast, Expansive has had an EXTREMELY potent ability in double speed Workers taken away from it. But I will admit that I could be proven wrong on the basis that double speed Granaries are really good, I just don't think they are amazing with the new high power traits and buffed traits. As an idea, how about double speed Grocers?

CRE: only +1 culture in all cities (still +100% production of library, theater and colosseum)

Extremely minor nerf: I honestly don't think this changes Creative's placement at all. I also think it is wholly unnecessary: With the new traits, Creative was hardly a problem, competing in the 5th-6th range. Something fun is to combine it with the new souped up Philosophical: 150% GPP production, combined with super quick Libraries, allows you to make Great Scientists extremely quickly (Two Scientists should produce 9 GPP I believe: 12 turns to produce a Great Person and 22 more to produce the second w/ 8 GPP overflow, meaning you can produce 2 Great Scientists in 34 turns. By comparison, a normal civ would take 17T to produce one (Meaning you get your first Great Scientist 5T faster and thus 5T more of Acadrmy bonuses) and, with faster Libraries such as via whip, could potentially great out two Great Scientists in around the time it takes an opponent to get out one. It also makes The Great Library horrific (12 GPP by itself, something like 21 GPP with two Scientists).

SPI: unchanged

Spiritual's power level has basically not changed: It is a bit worse now on the basis of the trait power levels overall going up, but overall it is still a fine trait that an expert micromanager will get more value out of. It could be said to have been slightly buffed because some combos with it are better, like Philosophical for crazy Caste System or Agricultural working well with it, but it is basically rhe same old same old.

ORG: unchanged

Probably one of the weaker Traits now: Sumeria was nerfed slightly, trait power level has gone up and while still useful it isn't amazing. I don't think any trait in Tides of War is bad, like Protective was, but as with all things some are just better than others. It's biggest use will still be Courthouse UB stuff: An Imperialistic/Organized leader could create an extremely potent, expanding empire with half cost Markets and Courthouses, come to think of it, that'd be fun to do sometime...

IND: unchanged

IND is largely unchanged, but it has received a bit of a buff by proxy with Metal Casting's cost reduced by 150: This makes getting Forges up quickly without wasting hammers on the Oracle more viable, though it also reduces the beaker boost you get if you slingshot it. They also have a received a slight nerf in The Great Lighthouse not being as crazy. An indirect buff is that Agricultural and Productive being in the game increases the number of viable non-Industrious civilizations, reducing the number of Industrious civilizations likely to be chosen, and Industrious gets better the less of them there are in the game. Overall though it is largely the same.

PHI: +150% gpp, double speed universities

Quite a buff! 150% GPP is a lot and I expect this to open up many strategies, for example building something like The Pyramids gets you a Great Engineer very fast and if you use that on The Great Library you'll generate a ton of high power type Great People in addition to having Representation. I also wonder if some crazy stupid slingshot possibilities are open by generating Great People faster than expected in the base game: CS Slingshots perhaps? While not one of the best abilities it is much more interesting and worthwhile now. It is also a natural fit with Agricultural.

IMP: +100% GG points, +50% settler production, and double speed markets and banks

The addition of double speed Markets and Banks is a fairly nice buff, though not amazing: It allows for a lot of help paying for your expansions by taking an expensive but very good gold generating building and making it much cheaper. Banks are also useful, if starting to get late, though I do wish it was Grocers over Banks for America's UB...but that is not flavorful. Maybe on Expansive. The buff is not great but does help Imperialistic and Imperialistic, to me, was never really all that bad. It also forms an interesting combo with Organized now because they offer discounts on both the big econ buildings while pushing expansion. It is also now one of the few combat traits.

CHA: +3 happy in all cities, -25% XP requirements (no happiness from monuments or broadcast towers)

Another big winner chicken dinner here! +3 happiness is huge: First off, you can build your cities bigger [b[faster[/b], meaning for example working cottages faster and thus growing them faster and reaping rewards faster. You can put Monarchy on hold longer to, say, go for more economic techs like Currency and Code of Laws faster, push towards military expansion faster or whatnot. You can whip more frequently and better grow into large whips. How much you have to pay in military police when you DO go into Hereditary Rule is reduced compared to your opponents, meaning you save cash which is compounded with faster cottages. In addition, you can grow into it faster because you had a bigger happiness cap. This all combos very well with Agricultural for a fast and large empire. It's a massively improved ability and I feel it is now one of the better ones. As a bonus, it still has the nice -25% XP requirements, giving you a nice little military bonus. Pretty much it's one weakness is that it gets a lot worse on a map satured in happiness resources...but that's a map design issue.

Personally, I would rank the traits something in the range of...

1. Agricultural
2. Productive
3. Financial
4. Charismatic (I keep flipping 3 and 4 around, though)
5. Creative
6. Spiritual
7. Industrious
8. Philosophical
9. Imperialistic
10. Expansive
11. Organized

The ones with the highest variance probably being Charismatic, Expansive (I could be underrating the Granaries) and Imperialistic (I feel it could be better than Philo/Industrious). For this game, since we're picking early, our choices are basically between the two leaders I most wanted to play before the game: Tokugawa (Agricultural/Productive) and Boudica (Agriculutral/Charismatic). I'm going to think on it more and probably decide relatively mid day tomorrow ifn ot sooner, but if Wetbandit has any input I would definitely love to hear it.

[wetbandit]

It's a testing game, so you should pick what you think you'll enjoy. I think Toku would be fine, but I looked at that start and thought about Wang Kon. You pair a trait designed to get you moving faster with something that will help more in the mid to late game. Financial plus wharf means all of those water tiles are 4 commerce, not to mention the usual help with cottages, slightly delayed as you describe in your analysis.

I think this start makes Productive a must, with the 2nd food source being seafood. Provided you settle in place, with Productive, you're looking at a 5 turn workboat, netting the fish on T7.

[wetbandit]

Or, you know, you can take fast workers, knowing that you'll have to grab a Pro leader. Food Tech situation is ugly with India, since you'll have to grab Agriculture and Fishing, but you have 110 beakers banked compared to 90. This is a convoluted way of saying, start thinking about what starting techs you'd want. Tech cost changes are also significant:

Agriculture & Hunting cost 40.
Mining & Fishing cost 50.
Mysticism & Wheel cost 60.
(Previously, Fishing was 40, Mysticism was 50, and Agriculture was 60.)

I think I'd prefer to grab a fishing and mining/wheel civ. You can tech Agri at first and then go down the Mining/BW path.

Carthage (Fishing/Mining)
England (Fishing/Mining)
Japan (Fishing/The Wheel)
Portugal (Fishing//Mining)
Rome (Fishing/Mining)

Japan and Portugal obviously have their downsides, and may be too weak, but the remaining 3 Civs might work. Agri/Fishing wouldn't be the end of the world either, just that we lose out on 10 beakers.

Alternatively, you take India, research Agri/Fishing, Fishing/Agri, BW, and pray for a decent productive leader (Churchill, Mao, or even Wang Kon).

[Kuro]

Wang Kon would actually be someone good here I didn't consider, hmm. In terms of those civs, Japan's UU is actually quite good but the Shale Plant's existance means overall they kinda suck. Rome would actually be very interesting: As I said, the benefit of Rome is now is you don't need Aggressive for Praetorians, and I don't think the Forum is a horrible UB. England would also be good because the combo is good. Agri/Fishing missing out on 10 beakers, the bigger problem is none of the Agri/Fishing civs are any good. I don't think I'd take India straight up: I think getting the superior leader would be a better strategic move than taking India. So that would leave us with Tokugawa or Wang Kon as the pick. Personally, I think I would most enjoy playing as Tokugawa over Wang Kon, so I guess we'll go with Toku?