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Singaboy and Sullla's team thread

I definitely agree with Russia being very strong too. Especially in the latter part of the game with cossacks.

If we are confident that China will still be available for pick 7, then maybe we should aim at the others first. It seems, it's a toss up between Rome/Germany/Nubia and maybe even Russia.

I will try out Nubia this weekend to get a feel in comparison with Rome and Germany.

@Sulla, I don't know exactly whether wonder benefits are shared. I need to check the game settings or civfanatics.
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This is what I found:

Multiplayer Teams have been added to Civilization VI and this feature builds on updates to the Alliance agreement. Players on teams gain additional benefits (beyond those of an alliance), as follows:

When one teammate finishes research on a tech or civic, their teammate(s) receive a boost for that tech or civic.
Teammates share war status against opponents not on their team.
Teammates share allied status with opponents not on their team.
Teammates work together to win or lose the game as a single entity. The Religion and Culture Victories have been reworked so they are more cooperative.
The Religion Victory requires you to convert all civs to ONE of the religions started by your team.
The Culture Victory requires ONE member of your team to be culturally dominant over all players NOT on your team.


Seems like no effect on wonders.
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I've got a few musings to share......

Map Settings from signup thread:
Quote:• 1 shared continent per team, 4 continents total
• Room to expand on the starting continents (not cramped starts)
• (Likely) small landbridges or coastal connections between continents.

So we will have a lot of room to expand, which makes me want to lean builder over early combat. I am also thinking that since this is a hand-edited map.... I'm not so keen on any civ that really relies on a start bias. Because we could get Nubia without desert, or Australia without coast. Russia's isn't as big of a deal, but they wouldn't be a first pick anyhow.

Team game settings you mentioned:
Quote:The Religion Victory requires you to convert all civs to ONE of the religions started by your team.
The Culture Victory requires ONE member of your team to be culturally dominant over all players NOT on your team.

I am not so down on religious victory, I know Alahambram won in PBEM 2, but I feel like with setup each team will get their own religon and can have at least one player spreading it, and plays will be wary enough to not let someone spread it everywhere.

So how we are going to win needs to come down to culture or domination. I haven't honestly gotten into the culture mechanics enough to know if it's possible to win without getting open borders and trade routes with everyone. If so, have one player be China and build all the wonders to accumulate tourism while the other player defends him?

If we want to go for domination though, we're all going to have a whole continent to own and expand. Which means we would likely need a good navy to make it from one blob to another, but then also a good land army to go through their inner territory. Is it more powerful to have a navy focused civ or a land focused one? It's hard to know without knowing the map, but if we have actual land connections i think we could possibly spare the navy route and just go land army.

Completely differently, we could just turtle up as Germany & Australia (if the aussies don't get picked) and go for a long-view science win lol Though as none of our games have really gotten anywhere close I don't think that would be realistically tenable....




All of this is pretty inconclusive. rolleye I'm feeling like first pick I should really just take a strong all-arounder, Germany or Rome, and then figure out where to go from there.
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Oh, and one more thing, I was thinking with China if we get them, the China player could honestly ignore campus & theatre districts, and just lag slightly behind on tech/civic progression, and then research everything at just 40% of cost as the other player gets it first. And that brought up the point for even without China, it would probably be more effective if we approach things with a division of labor mindset. Say one player builds all the campuses, and one builds all the commercial hubs. Then each player can just lock in the appropriate policy cards for more efficient yield boosting.
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I was thinking along those same lines, Brick. It makes sense to have one player each focus on certain districts and specialize team roles, with the understanding that everyone will want Commercial/Harbor districts (since every city wants to unlock a trade route). Your point is also well taken about civs with start biases on a custom map - Nubia is weaker without deserts, Brazil without jungles, etc. That would actually be a plus for Russia though, since the tundra start bias is probably the weakest part of that civ.

One thing that I kept thinking about yesterday was a potential pairing between Rome and China. Let Rome race through the early civics with their free culture while China picks up all the boosts at 60% bonus value. How about a China that only needs 40% of the cost of Craftsmanship to unlock it - a China that can get the Ilkum bonus boost on the FIRST builder before it even comes out? Neat stuff! You could have Rome specialize in culture and economic power while China focuses on science and wonders. Remember that gold is tradeable between civs so one of the two teams should be going hog-wild to maximize it as much as possible. Similarly, one of the two civs should be building Holy Sites in each city and optimizing for faith production while the other player never touches a single Holy Site. There's so many possibilities here for collaboration between the two teams that it should be a ton of fun.

I'm slightly annoyed that this game is being held up for the announcement of what is 95% certain to be next year's expansion. We should get started with the picking! lol
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Rome also has the advantage over Germany in that we are a lot more prickly in the early game, natural invasion deterrent.... Though you can't understate the production advantage Germany gets.
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So...the first choice will be either Rome or Germany, I guess. We can see what is left after a while, but China or Russia seem like nice choices.

I played Nubia and their archer units are terror, definitely not a bad choice. Maybe we can judge a little better what choices would be good when we see the starting locations.
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Let me lay out some theories I've had kicking around in my head about how to set up two civs to complement one another. (Ah Thanksgiving, lots of time with relatives to spend thinking about Civ stuff.) I'll preface this by saying that this is all theorycrafting, and as someone who's not playing in this game, you guys can opt for something else entirely.

Civ A (our potential Rome pick)

This civ focuses on the economic and production side of the gameplay. The goals for this civ are to make sure that the team stays current in military power, along with maximizing gold generation for the team to share. If this ends up being a Rome pick, this civ will also lead the way in culture for the early portions of the game and clear a path for Civ B to unlock the early civics. These are the districts that Civ A will want to focus on:

1) Commercial/Harbor districts (one per city, preferably Commercial districts)
2) Industrial/Encampment districts (some mixture of both)
3) Campus districts (every team needs science)
4) Theatre districts (as necessary)

Civ A also has the goal of getting one city with Encampment/Commercial/Harbor/Industrial districts so that both players have the option of running 1 food / 5 production trade routes there, a setup that's great for most everywhere. Depending on the civ that gets selected, the team can plan out which tech and civic boosts for this player to select. This is the more straightforward of the two roles, playing the game mostly like it would be played in a solo venture. Money and production and military are the main goals here, making Rome or Germany very good selections.

Civ B (our potential China pick)

This civ has the goal of setting up an early religion, then concentrating on research and cultural output down the road later. If we are able to get a China pick on the second swing through the snake draft, then it will also have the goal of landing the key early game wonders. Here are the districts that Civ B will want to focus on:

1) Holy Site district (every city of Civ B gets one)
2) Commercial/Harbor districts (one per city, preferably Commercial districts)
3) Campus districts (every team needs science)
4) Theatre districts (as necessary)

This civ should not be building Encampments, and only the minimal number of Industrial districts needed to ensure everything gets the regional factory boost. Our goal here is faith output and then science/cultural generation. Each city still wants a Commercial or Harbor district though, simply because money is great and trade routes are awesome. Production output will necessarily lower, but that will be countered with stellar economic output of beakers and culture.

For a China pick, the first goal is getting Stonehenge and landing the first religion. If Russia is the pick instead, then use cheap Lavras to land the first religion. Take Defender of the Faith immediately to make the team a prickly target that no one wants to fight. Civ B has the goal of generating faith and using it to spread the religion to both teams. That means a Holy Site in each city with attendant shrine, temple, and worship building. Pretty much any of the worship buildings are good here (especially Wats or Meeting Houses), and that belief can be evangelized later, potentially with China getting the two apostles for free from Mahabodi Temple. For the founder belief, the one that grants +2 gold per city following the religion would be the easy choice. The harder pick is the follower belief, and that's what should be chosen immediately along with Defender of the Faith. I suggest one of two things: either the new Choral Music which grants culture equal to the faith output of shrines/temples, or Jesuit Education. Probably the latter, because the best use of faith is to use it as a way to purchase other stuff for free. For Civ B then, get the first religion, get Defender of the Faith and Jesuit Education, then build Holy Sites and spread the religion to both players, using faith to purchase science/cultural buildings one the faith generation gets going.

A China pick means a guaranteed Pyramids/Colosseum/Petra, and then any of the other early wonders if desired later on when they become super cheap. With Autocracy and the policy card that grants +15% to Ancient/Classical wonders, one builder practically equals one early game wonder. Smart targeting of the important ones, plus a powerful early religion, should snowball the team significantly ahead. At that point, it's a question of whether to try and dominate the other teams by force or go for something offbeat like a cultural win. It might be doable under these settings here, where aggression seems difficult to pull off.

Anyway, just some thoughts bouncing around in my head. I also like Rome or Germany for the first pick, and then China or Russia for the second one. smile
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The plans sound all nice in theory. Gameplay will always need lots of adjustment especially given that we are not playing in empty space. What I mean is, all my plans with Germany and factories etc never materialized in PBEM2/4 due to the fact that I got attacked each time. The key in the game is also to be able to defend our land. Let's hope this combination of civs make us strong. If we don't get China, Russia seems a very strong choice.

I am going to test this out a little using MP team player setup (playing against AI of course), to see what the synergies regarding culture and tech can be like.
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Singaboy, we could maybe try and do some real-time MP versus AIs, even using late era start to test out later pieces if you'd like to try? Depending on availability over the next couple of days of course.

Sullla thanks again as always. thumbsup That's a really great outline for division of responsibilities. I would definitely agree that following that type of plan, Rome/Germany and then China/Russia would be ideal. But since we're apparently seeing starts first anyway, let's see if we end up getting one that will change the weights any.
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