Horselover Fat's journal - Iskender and the Hippus

[Ravus Sol]

You are a mercenary civ. Don't worry about backstabbing and feel free to switch sides as often as you need to survive and improve your own civilizations power :D

[Maksim]

I feel bad about all this. I'll have to keep lying to Pocketbeetle and I really hate that. He's the guy who got me here over from CFC and he's been nice and friendly all along. Sometimes I wish I didn't notice those Airships and allied with Pb vs. Bob and let Pb build an advantage that guarantees him win (that he certainly deserves).

To offer some advice, and apologies if it's inappropriate -

First of all, just relax, take a step back and remind yourself that this is just a game. You've invested a lot of time and effort in this one, obviously, so there's definitely an emotional element, but it should not overshadow the overarching idea: this is just a game, and all players entered it with an objective to win - which is something only one person can do in the end.

As long as you are doing your best, trying to win, then you are doing the right thing.

---

Now, there is a reputational risk to lying outright - people may be less inclined to trust you in future games. Then again, they may appreciate the circumstances you are in, and whether you would act differently had things been otherwise.

Keeping everybody thinking what you want them to think, not revealing your intentions and not comitting to anything you'd rather not commit to, without outright lying - now that's the art of diplomacy!

[Iskender]

Of course you could change plans again, and the phony-real messages to bob will be phony again and your lies to pb will be true!

I wish I could do that! I'd be planning the invasion with Pb at the moment. But those Airships - they're just so insanely powerful that it'd mean the end of Erebus as we know it.

As long as you are doing your best, trying to win, then you are doing the right thing.

I am doing my best to win, but I feel really uncomfortable when "massaging the truth" for Pocketbeetle. Fortunately it's not going to last much longer.

Got a reply from Selrahc:

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]I'm not feeling immediately threatened by PB, due to our diplomatic relations. I'm not sure you should either. At the moment he seems to be most worried about defending from Bob. But you're right that the level of speed he has is scary if conflict should arise. I'm not sure airships are the scariest part though.

At the moment I would be far more worried about the centaurs themselves than the addition of airships. Maybe I'm just not thinking about it the right way. As I see it though, the airships are pretty vulnerable to attack, and will have to drop off troops leaving them vulnerable to attack for a turn before they can move. It adds a few new directions for his attack force, from over the sea or moving over lakes and mountains, but if he wants to spend a few thousand beakers on that it doesn't seem the most scary thing.

The raider centaurs themselves are pretty terrifying though. If they get on your road network they can do the ten tile fork on their own. And I think I might be taking a rather similar approach to stopping them as you. Blinding light. I'm hoping I'll be able to get enough mages scattered around to hold his stack in place while I bring up an army. I'm hearing you're going for Empyrean, so you can do the same thing except its easier to get next to him with speedy Rathas.[/COLOR]

So he didn't know. Also, I forgot to mention in the first message that disembarking doesn't cost movement. So an addendum is needed:

[COLOR="Lime"]I forgot to include an important detail in the inital message (sorry,
I must've been still disturbed by the discovery): disembarking units
from Airships doesn't cost movement. Does that change the picture?

Also, it's possibe to unload units on peaks and leave them there.
Should be fun to drop summoners on peaks near cities if the enemy has
no access to fireballs.

Iskender[/COLOR]

When I was writing the above Pb approached me on chat. He's growing impatient:

[COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Hi Iskender

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: hey Pb
14:47
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: I saw your quick reply to that screenshot, what are your thoughts?

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i'm workig on a plan

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: would that plan involve me?
14:48
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: you realize that my only serious units for some time will be rathas

i think that maybe i could lure bob's stack somewhere near my border and then immobilize it

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Well look, before we start getting into specifics, let's get the groundwork sorted
14:49
What I'm asking is: are you interested in a military alliance vs the Calabim, to remove or lessen the threat of Vampires. Territory gains would be pretty much exclusively yours, nomatter who does most of the action
14:50
You approached me a couple of days ago asking if I was interested, I'm saying yes
14:51
[/COLOR] [So much for my attempt to obscure the issue by trying to argue over details]
[COLOR="Lime"]ja: i'm curious why do you need me in this operation actually. it looks like there's little I can do at the moment, apart from these rathas
14:52
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: ? I need you because I'm production limited Iskender. I have four cities...total. I can mass a decent force, but for me to feel confident in attacking Bob, I'd like an ally

Understand something

My time of leading the demographics is coming to an end
14:53
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: are you ready to give me all his land for assistance of a couple of rathas?

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Bob already beats me in crop, soon he will beat me in mfg goods etc
14:54
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i think he's been beating you in mfg for a long time (gov. manor hammer bonus)

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: I've been wondering that Is it not counted?

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: but that's beside the point, sorry

it's not included in demos
14:55
[/COLOR]

pocketbeetle: Well, sucks to be me then. So basically he's kicking all our asses, and now he has his superunit [It would have been a superunit 30 turns ago. Now, I think, it's just a very good and extremely annoying (commando spectres) unit.]

[COLOR="Magenta"]
I have my GNP, that's it

Regarding your last question
14:56
I'm willing to tell you I have no intention of settling in the SE. So if we take out Bob, yes it's yours. So long as - you are a serious and committed ally
14:57
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: aren't you afraid that with all that land I might actually be a worse threat than Bob?

[/COLOR] [Yeah! I trained a horseman 6 turns ago, and as of yestarday I have two of them!]

[COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: You seem to be having trouble getting your head around the idea: I don't need land anymore Iskender
14:58
At the moment you are the third highest rival. Bob I consider either 1st or 2nd. It's in my interest to weaken Bob

This is your time Iskender. Your time to dictate the terms
14:59
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: let me give you an update on the situation with Sareln first
15:00
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Sareln is irrelevent Iskender

[/COLOR] [Phew... So the Thariss issue is solved. Good, I won't have to pretend I'm at war with Sareln]

[COLOR="Lime"]ja: he may give me the wheat and maybe the bronze

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: We're talking about Bob here, and an alliance vs him

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: ok, so what are your expectations about my part in that military alliance
15:02
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: I expect you to be committed. Depending on how YOU want to play it, and what Bob does, we can either joint attack, or defend the person he attacks then counter

I don't want to go into specifics until we at least have an understanding Iskender
15:04
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: so you want me to be your ally and promise that I'd get Bob's land, but it's unclear how or when it'd happen
15:05
i'm surely not equipped to conquer his cities myself. not now at least
15:06
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Not at all. I'm happy to go into specifics once I understand we're together and on the same page.
It would be silly of me to reveal war plans and my army composition without being certain that someone was with me
15:07
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i understand that

let me think about it

that's quite the most important decision i'd make in this game
15:08
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: What is there to think about Iskender?

What are the options you are considering?

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: a lot

how it would end

how i would end up
15:09
[/COLOR]pocketbeetle: that's not an option Iskender. That's an outcome.

[I was actually answering the previous question, but I'm grateful for that kind of patronizing. It makes Pb seem less of a friendly Boy-King and makes it easier to cooperate with Bob against him]


[COLOR="Magenta"]What are your options at this time?

Let me tell you what I've written in my thread

I think you have three options at this point

You are out of land and boxed in. You can either:
15:10
1) Attack Bob with me. Possible to gain a lot of strong land

2) Attack me with Bob. Possible to gain some land, less good and badly placed cities

3) Focus inwards. Maybe summon Mercurians/Hyborem etc.
15:11
I think 3 is a bad idea

Obviously I think 2 is a bad idea also

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i labeled them A B C

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: So Bob has approached you?

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: and C is what Sun Tzu recommends

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Or have you approached Bob?
15:12
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: i've came up with these myself

i mean in my thread

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Okay. So what did Bob say? What is he offering that I'm not?
15:13
[/COLOR] If I had imperial conditioning, like dr. Yueh, and had to tell the truth, I'd say: He's offering a chance for me to be able to win.

[COLOR="Lime"]ja: he didn't offer anything. he's not the kind of guy that tends to be generous

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: So why do you need time to decide then???
15:14
Do you think I've got no hope vs him, even if you help?
15:15
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: on the contrary. but i need to see if i could gain more by getting involved than by not getting involved
15:16
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Okay, but if Bob and I fight, he wins. I die. Do your chances of winning improve substantially?
Your neighbour still has more land. And now he'll have an experienced army.
15:17
You know that if I go, it's pretty much guaranteed you'll be next...
15:19
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: ok, to be honest. my best option is to see you two hurt youself as badly as possible. if i support one side and it wins decisively i will not have gained anything

[/COLOR] [I should have replied in this fashion at the beginning]

[COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: That's true.

Okay, so you're thinking the remain neutral, focus inwards option is better for the moment?
15:20
(Actually I don't agree with that last part) You'd gain a lot if we won decisively, but nevermind, ignore for th e sec

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: if i was sure it's better i wouldn't have approached you
15:22
[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: Okay. Well, I'll let you think about this for a little bit longer then Iskender.
I'm honestly having difficulty seeing why it's a hard decision. I think I'm much nicer than scary Vampires ( ) But nevermind

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]ja: you are, that's true

[/COLOR][COLOR="Magenta"]pocketbeetle: But, I will need a decision soon Iskender. Let me know
15:23
[/COLOR]ja: i will

[Maksim]

So, I've been thinking about Airships. From what you say, they are indeed a potentially abusable unit - though one can say that FFH is full of such units.

Since I've never used them, a couple questions -

1) How would you kill an Airship? It's an air unit, so can it be attacked by ground units when it's hovering over ground (not peak), and by water units if it's hovering over water? Presumably they don't have defensive bonuses?

2) Do spells affect them as normal?

Thanks!

[Iskender]

So, I've been thinking about Airships. From what you say, they are indeed a potentially abusable unit - though one can say that FFH is full of such units.

Since I've never used them, a couple questions -

1) How would you kill an Airship? It's an air unit, so can it be attacked by ground units when it's hovering over ground (not peak), and by water units if it's hovering over water? Presumably they don't have defensive bonuses?

2) Do spells affect them as normal?

Thanks!

I've never used Airships myself as well. They were added not long before the final version, I think to help Kuriotates transport troops across water without having to build coastal cities. This disembarking without losing movement thing is most likely a glitch - unloading troops on land from an Airship hovering over water still zeroes their movement. For me the thing is close to a game-breaker, even considering FFH standards, particularly in combination with Raiders, since there seems to be no counter to it.

I haven't tested it, but Airships should be killable and prone to spells the way Griffons are. They can be destroyed on peaks by other flying units, ie. fireballs or by peak climbers (only Druids and Yvain i think), but that doesn't make the issue go away as the ships can be made a part of a well-defended stack instead of hovering over peaks. The unimaginably large fork area is the problem. The Airships can be hit by mass damage, blinded, charmed etc. but that's only a matter of bringing enough of them to be able to pick a city within range that is weak enough to be undefendable.

[Maksim]

This disembarking without losing movement thing is most likely a glitch - unloading troops on land from an Airship hovering over water still zeroes their movement.

Yeah, this definitely sounds like a bug . Considering that RB has as its motto on the front page "We play legitimately..." et al., this could be considered a dastardly action, if not an outright exploit, similiar to the various rules for Civ3. Those, of course, deal with single player; I don't know if there are any such lists for multi-player games (I guess no double-move rules in PitBoss are somewhat similiar).

It'd probably be inappropriate to change the rules for Airship usage now as the game is already in progress, unfortunately.

---

Anyway, other than that, how's the game going?

[T-hawk]

Yeah, this definitely sounds like a bug

I'm not so sure. When units unload from normal water ship transports, they keep their movement if the unloading was done on land (meaning a port city or fort.) The behavior of units unloaded from an airship follows from that logically enough, since an unloading airship will usually be on a land tile.

[Iskender]

I don't want to make an impression that I'd like to use Airships as an excuse for being devastated by Pb. (HECK, he might not any Airships for that). They are abusable, but we should've seen them coming a long time ago.

I'll post a more elaborate update on the game tommorow.

[Iskender]

The Hippus are still in builder mode:



I've spread Empy to the capital and founded 11th city (the winter resort). First Radiant Guard will be ready in two turns, he'll most likely be immediately upgraded to Ratha. Not sure what to research next I've been saving gc for a couple of turns. Actuall, I'm quite sure what to research, but I haven't decided in which order. I need to get the following techs:

Bronze Working -> Warfare (3 turns)
Priesthood (3 turns)
Knowledge of the Ether + Way of the Wicked -> Corruption of Spirit (6 turns)

That's 12 turns total. If I wait 4 more turns before adopting AV I'll get a great person and trigger a golden age. I'll definitely wait for the golden age hoarding cash in the meantime or researchin Hunting, Stirrups or Mathematics .

In 16 turns I'm going to adopt to AV and discover Infernal Pact in another 3 or 4 turns. When it's done I'm converting to Sacrifice the Weak+Conquest+Military State and start producing military (Horse Archers, Diseased Corpses and Ritualists). If I see that I have a chance to get the Grimoire I'll start building it while simultaneously researching Fanaticism. It should be ready in 11-12 turns (30 turns from now). I'll use it to get Malevolent Designs and rush build (with cash) Beasts of Agares in four weak cities (training BoA drops population of a city by 4 and causes a 4-turn revolt).

That's the optimistic scenario. I see two problems with it:

First, Pb might declare war on me if I refuse to cooperate. With Engineering movement bonus he will be able to reach my capital in one turn with centaurs moving out of the fog. I've added a few archers to the capital and now its splendid garrison looks like this:



I'll reinforce it with new archers as soon as they're available. In case of emergency I'll be able to move in horses as 55% withdrawal meat-shields (I have three of them, another one next turn). Still, it's not much if Pb trains three or four centaur archers a turn. I just hope he believed my 'neutral stance' BS and that he values those few happy faces he gets from my gems and wine.

Borders of Urgortheth, the northernmost city are expanding in three turns. I'm not sure if the expansion will convert Pb's settlement. I wonder if he follows my cultural expansion close enough to anticipate the borders' expansion.

The other problem is the Calabim. Since my sending the desperate full disclosure message concerning AV and the Grimoire Bob has researched Mysticism, Philosophy and Way of the Wicked, skipping essential techs such as Archery (looks like he's overconfident about his vampires, a bad sign). I'll be pissed if the next tech he researches is KotE. If he decides to grab the Grimoire before me I'll change the above 16-turn plan, most likely leaving out the Infernal Pact part, and most likely concentrate on getting Chalid.

I wonder what Selrahc is doing. He didn't respond to my 2nd message on airships. If he's aiming for Archmages I wonder how is he going to get 20 exp needed to get to the 6th level. I visualise his adepts running in the wilderness trying to prove themselves worthy, with Orthus Axe in one hand and a Great Commander piggybacking.

[Iskender]

No turn today, but I had an interesting chat with Selrahc yesterday (snipped out irrelevant parts):

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc:
Finally finishing Tower of Div this turn, so I'm eager to get it.[/COLOR] [the save]

[COLOR="Lime"]Ja: i thought you'd wait for Acane Lore to grab Strength of Will
21:32
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: I'd rather get the free great scientist and crown of akharien early, then tech it the hard way.
21:33
[/COLOR]

[Interesting. Looks like Selrahc is not going to join the fun with the happy trio: Bob, Pb and me]

[COLOR="Lime"]Ja: yeah, you'd still need 20exp for archmages

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Yeah.

I've got a few mage candidates. Nobody even close to archmage hood yet.
21:34
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: we might arrange air mana exchange. i'm not sure though what i'd like to get in return

[/COLOR]

[I don't want to trade mana for mana - I'd get only 1st level spells and Selrahc would have Maelstrom]

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Well I've got a few things to offer.
21:35
Pretty much any reasonable deal will be considered. I'd love to get some maelstrom casters.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: yeah, it's good. unlike fair winds...
21:36
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Heh. Yeah. Fair winds is lacklustre even on an archipelago map. On a pangaea...
21:37
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: unless you've got those funny flying ships

do you think you could handle them without snowfall?

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: I actually need to do some sims. I'm fairly sure they're still succeptible to blinding.
21:38
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: i guess they are, but it won't stop them

[/COLOR]

[It will stop them for one turn at best until blindness wears off, and in games with sequential moves it wears off after only one turn]

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: I do know that PB isn't a big fan of them.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: really?

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Yeah. We've been doing some talking about vampires, and I brought up the subject.
21:39
He was pretty dismissive of them.

Called them a waste of beakers.

Maybe he was deflecting, but I didn't get that impression.

[/COLOR]

[Could it be that Pb dismissed Airships just like that? Maybe he doesn't know that disembarking from Airships doesn't cost movement? It almost makes me want to switch back to option [SIZE="4"]A[/SIZE], too late for that now though.]


[COLOR="Lime"]Ja: odd. for me it's easily the best unit in MP FFH
21:40
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: I'd have thought that was Chalid

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: Chalid sux
21:41
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Nah. STFU. Chalid roxxors.

Sorry. Roxxorz

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: suxxorz

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Heh.
21:42
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: i gave it some thought: chalid is good in SP as a mega AI stack buster

not so good in MP

still not bad though

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: It's true you could scatter your stack to avoid the burn, but scattered stacks are easy to pick off.
21:43
Seems a pretty nice unit to me.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: he is. but i'd still trade him for a couple of airships
21:44
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Hmm. I really need to go do a Kuriotate game. Investigate their uses in more detail.
21:45
Incidentally, you at all worried about the other super-unit on the map?

i.e vampires

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: no

they ceased to be super a few dozens turn ago
21:46
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Yeah? Care to elaborate?

They still seem pretty scary to me.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: they appeared too late in the game
21:47
we're going to have blinding light, that also prevents them from casting spells
21:48
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: True enough I guess. It's certainly tough going to invade sun mana users.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: or Empys

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Yeah.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: and Bob has only 1 node
21:49
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: Which negates the spectres substantially. True.

Maybe I'm giving them too much worry.
21:50
I don't know. Haste. Mobility. Raiders. They're at least as scary as centaurs.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: yeah, haste is a bother
21:51
i'm quite resistant to pillaging with mostly farms

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: I'm substantially more vulnerable since my economy is based around towns.
21:52
[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: still, if you didn't spam roads i guess you'll be fine
21:53
[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: I think I'm pretty good as far as that goes. The border regions lead to choke points along the road network, before opening back up in the core.
21:54
If someone gets into the core I might be a bit

Hopefully I can prevent that though.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: any idea why Cull vassalized to Bob? it was quite surprising

[/COLOR][COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]Selrahc: You got that right.
21:55
I asked Bob about it, and apparently it was due to the threat of vampires.

But you know I wish he'd asked me about it.
21:56
I think PB has been having similar concerns. He sponsored the peace deal between me and Cull and I think he has a vested interest in him.

And also didn't get a consult.
21:57
Slightly worrying in the sense that I was thinking Cull was the logical choice for Bobs agression before he turned on the bigger civs.

[/COLOR][COLOR="Lime"]Ja: i guess Bob might have waved his bloodpet/moroi army before Culls nose

[/COLOR]Selrahc: Yeah. Probably.