[SPOILERS] scooter, pindicator, and Huayna Capac try some fast Zulu cuisine

[Ceiliazul]

A 'comments' section is always good, if they don't distract from the data.

But yeah, better take it to the mod thread.

[Krill]

Disliking a change and appreciating the effect it has on gameplay are two different points. Such a poll and consequent changes wouldn't actually lead the the stated aim of the project: balancing game play. In fact I'd go so far as to say that most people who play civ don't have a clue about game balance.

[scooter]

Yeah I don't like that idea at all. Democracy doesn't work for this type of thing. I've seen people who have participated in 0 RB Mod games who obviously don't really understand some aspects of the mod advocating changing things that I (having played 3-4 of them) think are great.

But yes, I despise the Astronomy change.

[Ceiliazul]

Both good points.

To get back to the thread at hand, I'm looking forward to that empire overview shot. :-)

[pindicator]

Disliking a change and appreciating the effect it has on gameplay are two different points. Such a poll and consequent changes wouldn't actually lead the the stated aim of the project: balancing game play. In fact I'd go so far as to say that most people who play civ don't have a clue about game balance.

That's why i suggested the comment field. If people dislike it but give bad reasoning that should be taken into account

[Krill]

I'll make 1 last point then if you want to carry on Pind we can do it by PM to stop cluttering this most excellent thread.

The issue with comment fields is that either they have to be mandatory for all of the points or for none of them, and if people give no reasoning, then how is "bad reasoning" taken into account? Hell, how is it even reasonable to interpret any of the comments, that just makes it much more difficult to judge? And if you require reasoning for all of the negative changes that creates a bias in the data collection. Lots of difficulties with what that attempts.

[scooter]

So thinking about our situation some, scooter, and I don't think building Wealth during our golden age is a great way to go. I mean, if we think slowcheetah is going to attack at the end of the enforced peace then we don't have a choice, we have to get Chemistry ASAP. But if we think he got more than he was bargaining for and won't try to follow up then it may be time to take a risk.

Otherwise, I fear we're just going to continue to fall behind.

INCREASED TECH COSTS + DECREASED KNOWN TECH BONUS = HARDER TO CATCH UP TO LEADERS

Just in case Krill is paying attention, we can add that to the list of things to correct in RBMod. Right up there with Paper as a pre-req for Astronomy.

Back on track - taking a risk. I think we have to do one of two things in this golden age:

1) Economic route: courthouses, libraries, observatories, and probably a few markets here and there. And ESPECIALLY a grocer in Culver's. Our cities are really hurting here because we've done primarily military builds for the last 30-40 turns. I'm sure my whipping spree didn't help either. If you really want to roll the dice then don't tech Chemistry and instead grab Education, but I can't advocate gambling that much.
2) Military route: After chemistry we whip ourselves silly and either conquer Slowcheetah's near island or Xenu. After the conquest we then build up the economy

I think we need to see what's behind door #1 and build infrastructure. It will probably slow chemistry down by a turn or two by not running wealth builds, but it's a gamble I think we need to take to try to increase our long-term teching power.

So you know: yes I read and am thinking about this. I just don't like any of our options. The reality is that even if he's not coming right now, we have a Commodore problem. Plako is winning this game, no question. Commodore has to see this. Sure he could try his hand at a culture win or something, but his best chance at overtaking Plako is to get more land. His options are thusly:

1) Bigger - Dutch are not an attractive target in this phase of the game
2) Serdoa - not the bee's hive that I'd be poking, personally
3) Slowcheetah - Better than the first two options, but also someone who is very competitive with Commodore in military, tech, etc
4) Us - Falling behind in tech (as expected), total lack of production, smallest military in the game (despite the largest navy), 30gpt shrine there for the taking, etc.

I did say months ago when Commodore got to Galleons + Rifles we were in trouble right? Well we're basically there. Fine, no rifles, but he's got plenty of other stuff.

So that said, I don't think I really care all that much to build a bunch of shiny buildings for Commodore to inherit in a month or two. If we knew for sure we were getting peace from Slowcheetah, I'd just as soon say screw it and attack Commodore because why not. That's not a realistic option here, but that's the thought in the back of my head. Overall I'm not sure. There's nothing we can do about the fact that we're in an extremely tenuous position, but I'd rather not play passively here. The next 30 turns is our last real chance to be relevant and put a serious hurt on someone, and I don't think I want to spend it building Grocers for somebody else to inherit.

edit: not trying to torpedo your plan. Just thinking out loud here.

[scooter]

Basically all that to say I don't like either one because we have no obviously good option, but I lean towards military route.

[pindicator]

So you're saying it's time to retake the fatherland?

If so we skip chemistry, tech nationalism, and draft muskets. We won't need frigates if we can hide the first wave well enough

[pindicator]

If we want to go after Commodore, would this be a war of revenge to destroy him from having any chance of winning?  Or are we going to try to keep what we capture?  This is going to affect the tactical plans either way.  Also, if you say revenge i'm going full on Wrath of Khan for our turn reports.

Either way, we're going to want to go drafting because we are going to need land units ASAP.  I think our tech plan should look like this:

HBR -> Theology -> Drama (optional) -> Finish Gunpowder -> Philosophy -> Nationalism

In total it is 9,325 beakers, or 7,063 base beakers adjusted (probably a little less, I was conservative in guessing known tech modifiers).  Drama probably only makes sense if we try to set up a globe theatre camp, so we can cut that out and lower the total cost to 8,842 beakers / 6,822 beakers adjusted.  Cutting drama out would save us maybe half a turn.

I don't think we would be able to finish the entire tech path before our golden ages finish. Even if we remove all other techs and just beeline straight for Nationalism and Gunpowder, we're looking at 7,635 total / 5,917 adjusted beakers.

I would build knights, pikemen, and catapults for the war.  When nationalism comes in we double draft every city to get about 20 muskets.  Our fleet is 17 galleons, so we can carry 51 units on an initial wave.  Currently we have an attacking force of ~20 units, although that leaves us pretty bare elsewhere.  But we can have two good waves built and ready for twenty turns from now.

It may be better to just take Nationalism off the table, to tech HBR, Theology, Gunpowder, Drama and then build/whip everything. I remember whipping up 80 knights once upon a time, i bet i can improve on that.