[PB 55] Miguelito and Mjmd help Amicalola avoid a repetition of last time

[Amicalola]

Yeah I'll have a tinker over the next few days, see what I can come up with.

I was thinking they might settle SW of cow for fish, cow, stone, ???(maybe other resources in fog), yeah. I don't think it's a sick spot, but neither is ours; either of us would want it for the denial and territory rather than the sick terrain, y'know?

Hmm, for some reason I didn't use that micro for Coffee when I was doing my own for the next 40-60. I'm not sure why. That's my bad.
Edit: I guess I was using the food to get Water up even faster, but that might have been strictly worse. Am dummy sometimes.

[Mjmd]

I'm not exactly sure what the 'whip exchange rate' is, but faster is usually correct and with the food we have I assume we could have gotten Water back up in time (I hadn't actually done the leg work to prove it, I was just following 'faster is usually correct').

[Miguelito]

I have to agree with Mjmd with 1E of yellow. Can immediately get the WB without waiting for a monument (monument can in fact come after the granary), and the lighthouse lake is really good as well, and should not be orphaned.
I don't actually see how yellow is so much better long term, let the silver just be worked by red and we're good. I think I value early commerce a lot less than you guys, my take is that with FIN and some semi early cottages, we'll be fine either way, and our worry really should be to get enough land and not get swallowed.
For the latter getting X down seems pretty vital, I would recommend holding up on other stuff if possible to get that faster. So rather whip a settler over a worker if said worker will just build cottages or chop (breaks even only after 3 chops), and even delay a granary if necessary. The Khmer are probably the strongest or second strongest players in this field, and the Balliphants are scary. A hill city on a chokepoint will be very valuable against that, but the other hill is complete trash (I would still settle it if needed, purely for its tactical value).
Can't go there before copper though, I agree. I have been thinking if it makes sense to delay purple for it, but 1) this probably messes too much with your plan and b) that city hopefully we'll be able to support the plant already.

[Amicalola]

Hmm, sounds like I need to look at 1E yellow more then, for city 5. The delayed monument by so much is something I hadn't thought about enough, as is the fact that red can still work silver.

If we slow down copper connection by a couple of turns, I think we could have the X down by around the same time as yellow, for 5 and 6 both around T60. Do you think that's fast enough? I'm not sure how much of a priority Gaspar will see the same area as, it kinda depends on what's in the fog. The big thing is finding a worker to chop a forest around Coffee to get 6th settler out at the correct time. When I sim, I'll make 100% sure to plan around that. EDIT: MENTAL NOTE FOR SIMMING: PRE-CHOP ONLY WITH NAT FOR FIRST WATER FOREST (TIMING)

It will significantly slow our growth curve internally, but hopefully the early granaries make up for that.

[Mjmd]

I don't know exactly where the 3 chariots are being produced from, but you could also see if we can find the 2nd(?) chariot to go park on that hill. It would then be very dangerous for them to settle the fish cow city without a spear. Do a deterrence strategy to buy you the time.

[Amicalola]

About to spend another hour simming. I think I'm going to try and delay the granary at Tea in favour of a couple of extra chariots, since we're a little TOO skeletal, especially to back up a forward plant. 

Also: Fuck. I think this is their copper spot.

[Amicalola]

Alright, how's this for a new version of the micro that emphasises SPEED OF SETTLING over most everything else. We get copper connected T64 with a couple spears in queue, and 6 cities + 5 (about to be 6) workers out by the same date. What do you think? It's worse in most respects, other than getting X out significantly faster. Red Wine unaffected, Tea very minor affected, White Wine (copper city) most affected. I know other peoples miro is neither easy nor fun to read, but these are probably the most important turns, so any feedback HUGELY helpful here. First of all, which plan do you like better? Is there any questions??

T45: Ramsey/Lopez finish pasture. Bourdain finish road. Coffee 2-whip worker. Tea work horse.
T46: Nat chop 1NW Coffee. Ramsey/Lopez rd horse. Bourdain chop 1NW Water. Coffee take cap sheep.
T47: Cancel Nat chop.  Ramsey/Lopez chop forest 2W horse. Bourdain finish chop. Water start settler, take cap sheep.
T48: Bourdain rd 1W Dye. Nat chop forest 1N Coffee. Ramsey finish chop. Lopez camp ivory. Water 2-whip settler. Coffee take cap sheep.
T49: Settler move to 4. Nat cancel chop. Lopez move to forest hill. Bourdain finish road. Water start granary.
T50: Red Wine founded. Nat road 1NE Coffee. Bourdain pasture pigs. Ramsey chop forest.
T51:  Lopez finishes camp. Nat finishes road.
T52: Chariot arrives at X. Lopez move to wheat. Ramsey finish chop. Nat new road 1NE. Tea start chariot, make sure has forest hill.
T53: Nat finish road. Bourdain finish pasture. Ramsey chop dye forest, cancel. Lopez farm wheat. Coffee take cap deer. Water take cap sheep. Tea whip chariot, work horse. Coffee size 4, start settler.
T54: Bourdain cottage 1W Red Wine. Nat finish chop forest 1N Coffee. Lopez farm wheat. Ramsey road 2N Water. Tea start granary.
T55: Nat finish chop forest 1NE Coffee. Ramsey finish road. Coffee 2-whip settler. Coffee and Water swap sheep/deer.
T56: Settler move to X. Nat move to X. Ramsey chop dye forest. Coffee overflow into 1-turn granary. Water size 4, start settler.
T57: Settler founds X (beer), starts granary (maybe should be monument for defense + line of sight?). Nat pastures cows. Ramsey finishes chop.  Lopez finishes wheat (Tea switches).
T58: Ramsey moves 1N wine. Lopez moves 1SW Water. Bourdain finishes cottage. Water 2-whips settler (6). Coffee start warrior (will upgrade to spear when whip worker).    
T59: Settler move 1N wine. Bourdain cottage 1S Red Wine. Rmsey road 1N wine. Lopez move 1N Wine. Water 1-turn granary (overflow).  
T60: Settler move to copper. Ramsey finish road. Lopez road 1N cow. Nat finish pasture. Water start chariot (maybe should be library if writing?.
T61: Settler found White Wine, start work boat. Nat roads cow. Lopez finishes road. Ramsey roads copper. Coffee size 4, start worker. Water switches to warrior (will upgrade in queue).
T62: Ramsey finishes copper road. Lopez mines copper. Coffee 2-whips worker (5, Oliver). Red Wine grows to size 4, 2-whip granary. Water switches to chariot (warrior needs 1 turn). Tea takes cap sheep.
T63: Nat moves 1N Coffee (start cottage coffee river grass). Oliver cottage 1W Coffee, cancel. Ramsey/Lopez mine copper. Bourdain finishes cottage 1S Red Wine. Red Wine starts monument (2-turn with overflow). Water finishes chariot, back to warrior. Coffee starts chariot (1-turn with overflow), takes back cap sheep.
T64: COPPER CONNECTED. Nat cottage 1W Coffee. Oliver move 1SE Water. Ramsey finish copper mine. Lopez pasture cow 1E White Wine. Bourdain cottage 1SW Red Wine.  Coffee finishes chariot, switches back to warrior. Water size 4, could whip worker or grow to 6.

Overview screenshot of the Empire T64 following this plan:

[Miguelito]

hm, I'm not quite sure, do we want to show them the chariots to dissuade them from settling, or hide them so they don't come with spears? I'd say try not to show them if not necessary to prevent a plant, and importantly keep that warrior around so we see when they move in. Best case they have another food by the copper, maybe in a spot that can share with the capital, but yeah SW of cow seems pretty likely now
Much depends on what the scout finds going forward.

[Miguelito]

On your micro post (crossposted): If you don't pasture the cow does the copper get online faster? Might be a price worth paying. Ideally the road is finished the turn before founding and the mine is finished within 2 turns. Then we need everything in place to whip an axe at coffee (well, have it whippable, and it depends on scouting of course)

But if we stay with your plan re: the copper, why would you finish the road before the mine? Mine is much needed for the workboat (that should also get a chop after connecting copper), and while the road does give you the trade route that is not as urgent.

Yes I would go for immediate monument at Beer, maybe chopped.

[Amicalola]

Oh of course mine before road, no idea what I was thinking there.

The road and mine being done like that was in the first plan without Beer, but basically impossible in this plans, because there just isn't quite enough worker labour to go around. We only lose 1.5 (functionally 2) turns of copper connection thanks to this. I think I could shave that to 1 turn if I recruit Bourdain for a turn or two and delay his cottages by the same amount, so I'll have a go at doing specifically tonight, and try to get connection to 63 instead. If that's doable, I'll have a think about delaying the Red Wine cottages even further and shaving another turn off for T62 connection, although then Red Wine starts to suffer a bit more.