[PB66] Tarkeel and civac explore the untamed wilds

[Tarkeel]

I'll have to log in to check what percent was at, but I didn't think there was any way that city would ever take tiles even at first ring. Your city was just too powerful culturally.

We kept checking, and it was dropping badly. We wouldn't have done anything until it was just about to flip though, and even then I'd probably have tried to do minimal damage and offer immediate peace.

I think I sent it twice, but it was basically iron on your side and then fish with 100g and aluminum on mine. IE you get peace rest of game and I'll let you win by spaceship.

I guess you mean this one?

I almost forgot this piece of diplo from Mjmd:


I have no idea what any of those components are supposed to mean. Fish probably something seaborne, and aluminum for nuke? It did make me appreciate that Arpinium can be nuked from Frontier Mountains, and Adrea from Seattle (or other parts of Gavland).

[Mjmd]

I meant to ask, what did you think of Spain? I know a lot of people have been wondering about how good Spain is with its UB that doesn't go obsolete, so thoughts?

[Tarkeel]

As you can probably tell, we were rather keen to try out Spain since we played it in PB62 as well. Overall, I think it's a pretty decent civ that opens up some alternative play.

With Fishing/Mysticism as your opening techs you really want a seafood opening, and a double seafood like we had here meant we could guarantee a religion before the game even started. Seafood starts also tend to be commerce-rich so you're not that held back by starting with Mysticism, and we had some plans to get an early Oracle that got sidelined by some head-bashing.

We actually never even researched the UU in this game, but I think it has room to shine in the right circumstances: bonus against melee and defensive bonuses means that you can use them like marauders, like I did with the base version in PB58. It is a rather niche unit though, as it's main strength is attacking someone behind you in tech.

The main reason for picking Spain is the Citadel though, as you said. The base castle is itself a pretty decent building, only held back by going obsolete not very long after you've finally got them built. Both the trade route and EP points came in very handy for us. Don't underestimate the cost reduction in not having to build walls first either. When it comes to the actual building bonuses, they are more "so-so": yes, you can easily build 3 promo siege units in the endgame, but at that point it matters more who strikes first than which promos you have. Bonus xp on ships is a lot more valuable, especially if you're CHA to get to the second promo with theo or vassalage (instead of both).

For the next person to take Spain for a spin, I heavily recommend PRO (for the trade route bonus) and CHA (if watery, to make the most out of ship xp)

[civac2]

I still don't have a good handle on Spain's strength. We mostly picked it because Tarkeel wanted to play it.

Reinforcing what Tarkeel said you need a workboat start for Spain to be viable and PRO is highly recommended unless it's a game with many factions (PB59ish). We calculated how paltry the PRO production bonus for the citadels would be and did not pick it but the real advantage of PRO would have been ensuring high yield trade routes for the citadels with the production bonus a welcome extra. With the bonus to markets PRO has become a playable trait. A watery map with many islands/landmasses increases the yield of trade routes and the value of the boat XP. Siege XP is as useless as ever.

Unlike Tarkeel, I suspect the conquistador is actually quite strong. Both defense bonus and anti-melee bonus sound great on paper. Due to getting bounced around in the early game we were forced into a tech path which was not conquistador-friendly so I can't say for sure. You likely need some plan to get them moderately quickly though.

With both uniques being strong Spain is a well above average Civ iff the starting position is exceptionally accomodating. Even this game with double seafood having Mysticism as a starting tech hurt our game. Our best first ring city food was a pig and thus we had to settle cities out of normal progression.