RBP2 Lurker Discussion Thread - No Players!

[Selrahc]

I wanted to weigh in on the current Mali/India GPerson negotiation, and the lack of parallels to the RB-Banana relationship in the demogame. Basically Sullla is asking for a GProphet and Dantski wants a GPerson+something else in return. Sullla basically said "not happening." This surprises me, since this is definitely an opportunity where an unbalanced trade should be well worth the diplo. Dantski is neither a threat to win nor the only remaining potential rival to India, so trades aren't a zero sum game. By giving something free to Dantski India could gain some more diplo credit, valuable since their only potential rival sits on the other side of Dantski's land. And what would it cost them?

The way he said "ONE great person" makes me think he think Dantski is asking for two great people, or their island city. It certainly explains the emphatic response.

[antisocialmunky]

You know when I read 'India' and 'Mali,' I thought I accidentally clicked on the PB3 Lurker thread.

But isn't Dantski playing some sort of weird neutral/not-really-neutral game. I don't think he'd let India through to roll over Nakor.

[sunrise089]

You know when I read 'India' and 'Mali,' I thought I accidentally clicked on the PB3 Lurker thread.

But isn't Dantski playing some sort of weird neutral/not-really-neutral game. I don't think he'd let India through to roll over Nakor.

I bet the way to get him to do such a thing would be to, ya' know, offer some one-sided deals to build goodwill

[Jowy]

HRE is still obsessed with India and winning the game whereas I just want to get to the end of the game in decent shape.

The way I see it, Mali is just India's lapdog, neither a valuable or loyal ally to them from India's point of view, just building up the cities for India to capture when they decide to take them under their own control.

[Axiis]

I would be surprised if Spullla backstabs Danstki at this point given all the moralizing they've done about Kathlete.

Does anyone else think that the obvious bargain for the GP trade is Prophet for Artist + Knights? Dantski could really use some modern soldiers and it wouldn't cost Spullla all that much.

[novice]

Hmm, i don't think Whosit has done a lot wrong. As far as i can tell, he has no idea that Spullla were intent on taking out his cities on the centre ring. If he had suddenly gifted the mainland cities just as one of the folks had their army on the border- well, that's a different story.

With his mainland cities doomed, it just seems to me he doesn't want to sit around and play with his two colonial cities waiting for someone to come finish him off. Yea, it's annoying from Team Spullla's PoV but unless Whosit has developed some kind of psychic foresight then i don't really see much cheesiness there to be honest.

OTOH, Rome and HREs (failed) plan to raze Carida seems rather cheesy, especially after HRE promised Korea not to accept that city as a gift.

[timmy827]

I wanted to weigh in on the current Mali/India GPerson negotiation, and the lack of parallels to the RB-Banana relationship in the demogame...
I don't think Sullla has changed, but rather he views Mali's past actions as having forfeited that sort of relationship.

Well, there's a couple things you left off - in the demogame PAL was clearly the #1 team during the time RB and Banana developed their close alliance, here Spullla is #1. Also Banana bordered PAL and thus was a natural rival, while Spullla and Danstki border; their relationship hasn't been great but it's pretty good compared to most of the other direct-neighbor relations.

That said, given how much Sullla (with some justification) complained about other teams in the demogame trading with PAL when they were leading, I'm surprised that he isn't working harder to get a swap here. The other comments about how a trade that on paper favors Dantski some still works out for Spullla vs. their main rivals are spot on. Even if Dantski's price is too high, it seems crazy for Spullla not to try to haggle/bargain him down some.

[Darkmantle]

Spulla has already said they wouldn't feel right conquering through Dantski because he helped them earlier. They have plenty of people who are actual enemies, so why would they be bothered? Especially when they have Kathlete, a serious tech threat with a well run empire that they would be far better off taking. With the added advantage that the front is just a solid one around the wheel. Attacking either Dantski or Nakor would result in crippling culture pressure from either side.

They may be inclined to 'liberate' the centre island from Nakor so that they limit his land base and secure the internal lines of supply for the map. If they could secure the inner sea, then they would open up numerous sneak attack opportunities against everyone, while defending themselves from the same.

If you read the apolyton demo game write up from Sulla you will notice the important points. He respected the Templars for fighting to the very last breath, drafting their final city into nothing to defend their territory. He respected Banana for fighting it out, even when it was almost certain PAL was going to crush them.

He had no respect for Imperio for jumping out of the game and letting RB eat up their empire. He had no respect for PAL jumping out of the game when they had their capital razed. So we always knew how he was going to see Jowy and Whoisit gifting away their cities.

Jowy could have fought it out. A bunch of archers piled into the final city on a hill would have taken valuable resources to take and burn, it would have built up war weariness and yearn to join the motherland penalties in all of their new conquests. Cultural pressure meaning that they couldn't happily chop down all the forests and get their new cities up and running fast.

Instead with an absolute minimum of fuss they got a bunch of new cities for almost no losses. They then set about applying their macro to bring them up to speed as fast as possible and get their disgusting globe city going.

Leonidas said it best himself.

King Leonidas: The world will know that free men stood against a tyrant, that few stood against many, and before this battle was over, even a god-king can bleed.

Or his other immortal line that we all know.

Doesn't matter that it was the easy choice, that it might spite your enemies by denying them valuable resources. It's the principal of fighting to the death and making your enemy pay for absolutely every single gain they make.

[Jowy]

You do realise that I actually kept fighting for some 70 turns after I already pretty much lost this game? But somehow I am a huge quitter because after those some 70 turns, I sacrifice my troops when I'm about to be eliminated. I would have lost those three other cities anyway, I only had troops in Corinth. So I would instead be a huge hero because I hold Corinth for what 3-4 extra turns? That's just not how I see it.

[sunrise089]

You do realise that I actually kept fighting for some 70 turns after I already pretty much lost this game? But somehow I am a huge quitter because after those some 70 turns, I sacrifice my troops when I'm about to be eliminated. I would have lost those three other cities anyway, I only had troops in Corinth. So I would instead be a huge hero because I hold Corinth for what 3-4 extra turns? That's just not how I see it.

I'm not calling you a quitter, but I think the two things people see that could have happened differently are:

1) You make India make an honest attack, costing them some units rather than suiciding against units on a forest hill (IIRC).

2) India is then allowed all of the spoils of their war.