[SPOILERS] The Peaceful Centaur: a Study in Possibility

[Gaspar]

Just WB'd.

Hunters can't see mistforms, Hawks can. So Hawk w/stack seems pretty necessary if you're concerned about a Mistform. Can't comment on the specifics cause I'm spoiled.

[NobleHelium]

Removed.

[Mardoc]

Just WB'd.

Hunters can't see mistforms, Hawks can. So Hawk w/stack seems pretty necessary if you're concerned about a Mistform. Can't comment on the specifics cause I'm spoiled.

I appreciate the clarification nonetheless. We are, after all, only deducing the existence of a Mistform, we haven't seen it - but it's good to know how to go about killing a hypothetical Mistform who's terrorizing Jkaen.

So, taking out a Mistform, even a Combat IV Mistform is definitely going to be possible if we can see it and throw enough bodies at it in a row. Centaurs even have a chance to survive the otherwise suicidal attack for weakening it. The real question then becomes, am I willing to wait until Hunting before city 3? Have to think about that one. Meanwhile, I'll definitely continue toward Horseback Riding for Centaurs for protection, scouting, and going to retrieve the Treasure.

[Mardoc]

Played the turn. Not much newsworthy except that our warrior group for a new city garrison is being chased around by Mitecha, so I'm having real trouble getting them headed east to the revised city2 site. Almost starting to think it would be worth letting him kill one of them just so the others can run in the right direction.

I plan on Horseback Riding right after Animal Husbandry. It's time to start thinking about what comes after that, and frankly, I'm thinking it may already be time to go for Knowledge of the Ether. Other things that could be nice - Exploration, Hunting, Mining, Crafting - but destroying the desert is a pretty high priority, I think. Well - maybe slip in Crafting

Also thinking that right after city2's plant is probably the time for Legends, better to save early hammers than to have a bigger benefit later. Particularly if we're going to have any chance of rushing Jkaen and killing a Mistform, we'll need every hammer.

[Irgy]

I plan on Horseback Riding right after Animal Husbandry. It's time to start thinking about what comes after that, and frankly, I'm thinking it may already be time to go for Knowledge of the Ether. Other things that could be nice - Exploration, Hunting, Mining, Crafting - but destroying the desert is a pretty high priority, I think. Well - maybe slip in Crafting

Does this mean you've given up completely on philosophical writing and a second philosophical great person? You might well be right though that it's a detour when you want to focus on the supporting techs for a centaur rush.

Legends could also be used to bring Jkaen's capital out of revolt (I think, anyway, I haven't tested this though), which could be a fairly significant benefit. My personal guess is that you can get as many centaurs as you need out of one god-king plains-working capital, the expansion city is barely going to contribute more than the cost of making sure it's defended. So my inclination would be to concentrate on playing the map.

Given JKaen is not on a hill, and with sprint you can declare and hit the capital from the fog in one turn (I think?), you might not need that many centaurs at all. For Jkaen at least. The mistform is another matter, but even that's really more about researching hunting than having a lot of units.

The suggestion of going for AV as your religion seems actually pretty sound to me. It's playing the map really, something I love about civ generally but which tends to get left behind in FFH with it's heavily specialised civs.

[Mardoc]

Does this mean you've given up completely on philosophical writing and a second philosophical great person? You might well be right though that it's a detour when you want to focus on the supporting techs for a centaur rush.

No, it just means that I wasn't thinking too completely. 40 hammers for +25% science is a steal, not even counting the extra GPP possible. Probably still want Crafting first, though, for Dereptus and a Tailor, but that's a very short detour.

Actually - it might be worth sticking one or both of those in before Horseback Riding anyway, to give Podagros something useful to work on. We can train some more Workers for improving City2, but there's very little point in building more units right now.

Legends could also be used to bring Jkaen's capital out of revolt (I think, anyway, I haven't tested this though), which could be a fairly significant benefit. My personal guess is that you can get as many centaurs as you need out of one god-king plains-working capital, the expansion city is barely going to contribute more than the cost of making sure it's defended. So my inclination would be to concentrate on playing the map.

That makes sense. It's true that there's little point in expanding the borders faster than the city grows, anyway. I may have to test the Legends/revolt theory, though.

Given JKaen is not on a hill, and with sprint you can declare and hit the capital from the fog in one turn (I think?), you might not need that many centaurs at all. For Jkaen at least. The mistform is another matter, but even that's really more about researching hunting than having a lot of units.

Agreed - as long as it's either a surprise or in the era of the Mistform, Jkaen will fold like a wet paper bag. It's the Mistform that's the real danger here. The ideal outcome, of course, would be for him to finally beat the Mistform, right before we charge, but I'd settle for hunting. Or, well, maybe a 3rd city elsewhere, if we can't get to Hunting in time or he kills the Mistform before we get to Centaurs.

The suggestion of going for AV as your religion seems actually pretty sound to me. It's playing the map really, something I love about civ generally but which tends to get left behind in FFH with it's heavily specialised civs.

Yeah - we had gotten fixed on the angels plan, but really with food this scarce and a smallish map, AV just works better.

[Mardoc]

Not much this turn except a slight frustration:


Next turn should have more excitement, though.

[Mardoc]

We complete both our research and our settler this turn. And discover good things about city 2's site!

Yeah, it still doesn't help with food, but it's better than a kick in the teeth.



After some debate, I decide to start on Crafting so we can get Dereptus and 1+ Tailors built. This might be a mistake, maybe Exploration makes more sense or going straight for Horseback Riding does, but I don't want to build any units yet and probably not for a while, so we might as well get alternate buildings available.

Podagros starts on another worker; 3 ought to be enough for 2 cities, I think, even if they're size 10. Meanwhile, our first Hamlet is born at the end of the turn; only 79 more turns to Enclave! . I also rehire a sage, so we can work on an Academy for city2. And get Podagros down to exactly 0 food surplus. Perhaps a Smokehouse makes sense here, too, if we ever want to grow.

[Azoth]

After some debate, I decide to start on Crafting so we can get Dereptus and 1+ Tailors built. This might be a mistake, maybe Exploration makes more sense or going straight for Horseback Riding does, but I don't want to build any units yet and probably not for a while, so we might as well get alternate buildings available.

Hmm. I agree with you: I'm not sure Crafting was the best call. Dereptus and Tailors are (relatively) expensive buildings, and with only one commerce multiplier resource (the Wheat), there are probably other, more efficient options. Picking the best early game tech path can be so difficult! I think a lot depends on whether you plan to use Legends right away. With a plains hill plant and first-ring horse (What luck!), a quick Monument is entirely feasible. In that case, I think an early Writing is in order: the new city will start hammer-heavy and can go Monument --> Elder Council --> Library, while the capital also builds a cheap Philosophical Library, for a bigger economic bang than a tailor or brewery. On the other hand, Legends makes Crafting more attractive, so that you can hook up the Gold sooner with Mining. By the way, did you get a chance to test whether Legends can bring cities out of revolt?

Separately, for the attack on Jkaen, you need Exploration, Hunting, and Horseback Riding. I'm not sure how soon that needs to happen: What does the Amurite power graph look like now? Are they still losing units to the Mistform? Either way, you want to be in Apprenticeship before building units; so maybe you want Calendar, to pair that switch with Agrarianism. And Calendar leads to Festivals, where Markets and Carnivals also bring quicker returns than the Crafting buildings. Hmm. It's difficult to say without knowing the beaker values, but I'll suggest this as a tentative tech path. Even if you disagree, it can help spark discussion:

1. Crafting-Mining OR Writing: Something for the capital to build while the workers continue putting up cottages and improving resources around City #2.
2. Exploration-Hunting: Capital builds Hunting Lodge+Hawk; workers start laying down roads and maybe some mines in preparation for Agrarianism.
3. Calendar-Festivals (optional!): Agrarianism-Apprenticeship civic switch, Hunters with 2XP, plus Markets/Carnivals if we really want more build options
4. Horseback Riding: Centaurs.

All in all, I think Knowledge of the Ether should be postponed until after the attack. Spring Adepts would be nice but they're not needed until the cities run out of plains tiles to work.

[Mardoc]

Separately, for the attack on Jkaen, you need Exploration, Hunting, and Horseback Riding. I'm not sure how soon that needs to happen: What does the Amurite power graph look like now?

Yes, they are still in the basement. It's an open question whether that will last until I get to a point of being able to invade, however.

Either way, you want to be in Apprenticeship before building units; so maybe you want Calendar, to pair that switch with Agrarianism. And Calendar leads to Festivals, where Markets and Carnivals also bring quicker returns than the Crafting buildings. Hmm. It's difficult to say without knowing the beaker values, but I'll suggest this as a tentative tech path. Even if you disagree, it can help spark discussion:

Now that's a good point, the only thing worse than a bad plan is no plan. I appreciate the prod to start thinking along these lines .

I'm sticking with Crafting for the moment, since I've already invested some time and it's a cheap tech (maybe 3 more turns), but as for your suggestion, hmm.

1. Crafting-Mining OR Writing: Something for the capital to build while the workers continue putting up cottages and improving resources around City #2.
2. Exploration-Hunting: Capital builds Hunting Lodge+Hawk; workers start laying down roads and maybe some mines in preparation for Agrarianism.
3. Calendar-Festivals (optional!): Agrarianism-Apprenticeship civic switch, Hunters with 2XP, plus Markets/Carnivals if we really want more build options
4. Horseback Riding: Centaurs.

All in all, I think Knowledge of the Ether should be postponed until after the attack. Spring Adepts would be nice but they're not needed until the cities run out of plains tiles to work.

I mostly agree with you, except that I think I'm going to delay Mining and accelerate Writing. Here's my reasoning:

I think I'm inclined to go for Crafting -> Writing -> Exploration -> Hunting -> Calendar -> Horseback Riding -> KoTE -> Corruption of Spirit -> Infernal Pact
Part of the rationale for Crafting is that currently my hammer/research ratio is way out of whack, I have way more hammers than things to do with them. Both Dereptus and Tailor, although they don't grant a lot of commerce directly until I get my greedy hooves on more resources, do have the bonus of +1 happy cap each through their resources. And also importantly, are things that I will want eventually anyway - I can't see myself ever regretting having built them, with the sole exception of a Khazad stack on the horizon.

Mining, on the other hand, doesn't allow much except the prospect of building mines. And frankly, I'd rather be working cottages toward enclaves. It also opens the possibility of copper eventually, but it can wait. The biggest thing it does grant is that gold, once the borders pop twice more. I'm leaning toward waiting on Legends, though, especially because you're right, the horse tile ought to greatly speed a monument build.

With the game's biggest cities, soon to grow further grow, and every tile producing hammers, I've got the production I need. It's just the gold that I want, so Mining will be delayed until that's close.

Writing - well, it would grant me the Philosophical Libraries, and quite possibly a second academy for city 2, as well, assuming I keep working Sages. The only reason I'm hesitant here is that it's an expensive tech at 360 beakers, as much as Hunting. If I'm going to do this, I should do it early enough in the tech path to get my beakers back, or else I'm giving up on the idea of taking Jkaen out. On the other hand - well, I really shouldn't ignore my trait; I should squeeze out all the value I can get from Philo before I switch. And that means libraries and GPP.

Exploration and Hunting are both pretty obvious, getting me resources and trade and Hawks for Mistform-hunting. As is Horseback Riding for the final push.

And then, I really do need to be boosting my economy, which is the main reason for heading towards AV right away. Right now, the biggest drawback to going for Dereptus/Tailor is that I'm actually not certain I have the food available to use the extra happy cap productively. At Podagros, at least, I can work enough farms, but city 2 probably won't be able to grow that big without at least Spring, and probably also Sac/Weak. On the other hand, once I do start sacrificing the weak, growing mega-cities will be straightforward, and I can just put down cottages anywhere and everywhere.

I did play the turn, but there's nothing new to report except a stubborn insistence on continuing Crafting.