[SPOILERS] The Peaceful Centaur: a Study in Possibility

[Azoth]

I mostly agree with you, except that I think I'm going to delay Mining and accelerate Writing. Here's my reasoning:

I think I'm inclined to go for Crafting -> Writing -> Exploration -> Hunting -> Calendar -> Horseback Riding -> KoTE -> Corruption of Spirit -> Infernal Pact

Clear and very well reasoned. I like it.
Now, for some minor quibbles. :neenernee

First, you skipped a couple prerequisites. (For brevity, perhaps.)
Crafting -> Writing -> Exploration -> Hunting -> Calendar -> Horseback Riding -> KoTE -> Philosophy -> Way of the Wicked -> Corruption of Spirit -> Infernal Pact

Second, I definitely think you should pick up Mining and Festivals before you tackle something like Infernal Pact. While direct beelines are very powerful in FFH, at least as many PBEM players failed to reach their potential because they skipped basic economy techs (think Vampires beelining Feudalism without Writing or Sanitation) than because they didn't have a clear tech focus. This is also the reason I think you shouldn't be so worried about Writing. I might not have exact numbers, but Writing is at least 2.5 times cheaper than Corruption of Spirit and probably 4 times cheaper than Infernal Pact, so I'm sure it'll pay back its cost in beakers well before then.

Finally, you want to research Infernal Pact and release Hyborem in as least disruptive a fashion as possible. That means building Rosier ahead of time (no problem) and being able to build the Infernal Grimoire immediately (more difficult, depending on what you want to lightbulb.) You don't want Hyborem to swipe either. Also, if you release Hyborem after researching Deception, you can both switch to Undercouncil and pick up a free Great Sage. (That could be the Ashen Veil shrine, right there.) So, at the least, we could be looking at:

Crafting -> Writing -> Exploration -> Hunting -> Calendar -> Horseback Riding -> KoTE -> (Mining+Festivals) -> Philosophy -> Way of the Wicked -> Corruption of Spirit -> (Trade+Deception?) -> Infernal Pact

Any idea what you want to grab with the Grimoire?
(It's far into the future but what else is there to discuss?)

[Mardoc]

First, you skipped a couple prerequisites. (For brevity, perhaps.)

*cough* *cough* yes, of course, it was brevity *cough*

Second, I definitely think you should pick up Mining and Festivals before you tackle something like Infernal Pact. While direct beelines are very powerful in FFH, at least as many PBEM players failed to reach their potential because they skipped basic economy techs (think Vampires beelining Feudalism without Writing or Sanitation) than because they didn't have a clear tech focus. This is also the reason I think you shouldn't be so worried about Writing. I might not have exact numbers, but Writing is at least 2.5 times cheaper than Corruption of Spirit and probably 4 times cheaper than Infernal Pact, so I'm sure it'll pay back its cost in beakers well before then.

Finally, you want to research Infernal Pact and release Hyborem in as least disruptive a fashion as possible. That means building Rosier ahead of time (no problem) and being able to build the Infernal Grimoire immediately (more difficult, depending on what you want to lightbulb.) You don't want Hyborem to swipe either. Also, if you release Hyborem after researching Deception, you can both switch to Undercouncil and pick up a free Great Sage. (That could be the Ashen Veil shrine, right there.) So, at the least, we could be looking at:

Crafting -> Writing -> Exploration -> Hunting -> Calendar -> Horseback Riding -> KoTE -> (Mining+Festivals) -> Philosophy -> Way of the Wicked -> Corruption of Spirit -> (Trade+Deception?) -> Infernal Pact

Any idea what you want to grab with the Grimoire?

I can see the reasoning pretty clearly, yes we should probably pick up some intermediate and basic techs before Infernal Pact. KoTE and Spring ought to be enough to last our economy a little while, anyway.

And for that matter, Priesthood is likely to be a good idea in there, too, so we can train some Ritualists. And maybe heading up to Stirrups for Centaur Archers.

Of course this will all be moot anyway, I'm sure, there's no way a 15-tech plan survives contact with the game. But hypothetically, I think I like Malevolent Designs for the Grimoire. The nice thing about being Kurio is that wonders ought to fall reasonably well to our supercities, so long as we're in a decent position on the tech tree to make use of the Grimoire.

(It's far into the future but what else is there to discuss?)

Hold that thought - tomorrow will come a diplo dump, in addition to whatever else we find. I need to figure out how far back in the e-mail I haven't posted, though. Basic summary: Ichabod was planning to kill us, then decided against it, and now he's being fairly open and reasonable. Also got a little info from Dantski and Jkaen, nothing committal.

[Mardoc]

Alright - if you recall, the last diplo of any consequence posted here was Ichabod asking us to move the second city and us complying. What's happened since then?

[COLOR="Magenta"]
Ichabod,

After looking around, the Kuriotates are able to find alternate
locations, so we'll move our planned city2 elsewhere in the interest
of maintaining Kurio-Khazad friendship. There is a Dyes between our
borders that we would like access to, either as a settlement location
or as a preferred trading partner - it would be a serious supplement
to our Tailor. In general, however, we're fine with directing our
settlement away from the Khazad.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="SandyBrown"]
Hey Mardoc,

I have to be quick with this one, just want to offer you a proposal in the game.

I think both of us want to build the tower of divination for the free tech. We need 4 types of mana to do it. You have 2 of them with your palace, sun and spirit. I have one with my palace, law. So my deal would be the following: I turn one of my nodes into a mind one (the 4th type) and we lend each other the missing types for the turns needed to build the tower. What do you think about it? Of course, we can plan it better later, just want to know with you'd be ok with a deal like this one.

Another thing: are you in touch with Jkaen? The demographics are so strange last turns (what with the crop yield of only 2), so I'd like to know what's happening. Do you know anything about it?

Ah, could you forward a message from me to him? I'd like to propose a non competition agreement regarding the RoK religion. I just want to be 100% sure that I'll get it.

Waiting for your answer.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Magenta"]
In order:

I thought you were planning to skip KoTE entirely? If not, then yes,
in principle I'm good with working together for our Towers. We'll
have to work on details later on. Have you given any further thought
to the rent-a-spring-adept proposal? Are you still interested, or was
that a smokescreen?

I'm in contact with Jkaen, but he's been awfully cagey. I think he
doesn't want to admit to his problems on the hope that I don't take
advantage of them. I still think it's a Mistform haunting his lands,
preventing him from building anything but 1% Warriors. But I'll
forward your message regardless.

Also, way back when, you said an extended NAP might be a possibility
after I moved my 2nd city site. Still interested? Our settler is on
his way SE of our lands, basically completely away from you.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Magenta"]
Jkaen,

We haven't talked in a while, so I thought I'd check in. How's life
in the land of magic? I see that something is haunting your lands,
eating all your warriors; my sympathies!

Also, I have a request from Ichabod - he's looking to secure a
non-compete on Runes of Kilmorph. Are you willing to give that to
him? He hasn't offered anything for it, as far as I know, but I'm
willing to be a go-between if you want to negotiate with him.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]
Hi Mardoc,

Yes I do seem to be pinned a bit right now, which is kind of frustrating

I am in no state right now to compete on Runes, so I have no problem passing it
up to him for good will.

Thanks for acting as a go between[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Magenta"]
Ichabod,

Got a response from Jkaen, he's fine with leaving Runes to you for goodwill.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="SandyBrown"]
Hey Mardoc,

First of all, thanks for sending my message to Jkaen. In fact, when I asked you to do it, I was thinking about writing something and send it to you to forward it to him. But you managed to get better results doing the diplo by yourself, so a big thanks! Thanks for the info regarding his situation too.

I'll go for KotE for spring adepts. The rent-a-spring-adept was mostly a smokescreen move. I'm sorry about it, but I was preparing the terrain for an attack against you and Irgy back then. I managed to secure a water mana loan from Dantski, so I'll have to sidetrack and get KotE (it's not that much beakers anyway). It's impossible to play this map without spring, unfortunately. Divination for the tower is a logical next step, since we can secure the mana types easily. Maybe I'll get alteration too, since body and enchantment mana are pretty useful, even with only the level 1 spells avaiable.

Maybe a NAP that last indefinetely, but can be cancelled at any time with a certain number of turns of cooldown (10 turns would be good)? I think it's one of the best ways of doing a NAP.

I hope your second city site is good![/COLOR]

[COLOR="Magenta"]Ichabod,

I would be fine with a 10-turn cooldown, indefinite NAP, in addition
to our T65 NAP. Consider it signed from the Kurio side, to take
effect when you sign on too. Just to be sure of avoiding future
arguments, suppose we phrase it as 'May declare war after 10 turns
have passed from notice', so if you give me notice before I play T56,
then you can declare on T66.

Agreed on Spring; one of our first posts in thread was to the effect
of 'thank goodness for Water mana". I wish I could count on Vitalize,
too, but honestly if the game makes it that far, it'll likely be too
late to use it significantly anyway. Do you get access to Repair, or
is that just the Luchiurp?

The second city site is a bit worse than the previous plan, but better
than the previous plan with cultural pressure on the food. And of
course it's better for foreign relations, as well; hard to quantify
that bonus .[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Magenta"]Dantski,

I've been neglectful on diplo, but I thought I should change that. So
how's life in the land of peace?

Us Kuriotates have been delayed on our second city, but we're planning
to plant it shortly, to our SE (away from you). We've met everyone
but Selrahc; it's a pain to get scouts past all the scorpions and
giants. In foreign news - well, we don't know much since we haven't
been talking to anyone, but hopefully that'll change soon.

We've confirmed and defogged a river path from our civ to yours, and
could be interested in trade, both Open Borders and possibly
resources. Admittedly, we don't have any excess right now, but it
shouldn't be too long before we have Ale and Fine Clothes for sale.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Cyan"]Hi Mardoc

Welcome to the Dantski style of diplomacy! (not contacting people).

The land of peace has been hit with the odd famine but is otherwise a joyful place. Our citizens are especially proud of our military force which is surely the envy of other nations.

Too bad with the 2nd city being delayed, mine will be up next turn and could've been delayed if some wildlife decided to be a pest. Fortunately it scarpered pronto before the might of my settler. Settling SE should give you a better chance of contacting Selrahc, incidentally he moved to the coast for his capital if you didn't know already so is a little out of place to where he started. I have no such excuse for not contacting Jkaen's Amurites yet, but hey those animals were not swayed by my scouts reasonable views.

The river path is interesting, trade is definitely beneficial to both of us but I'd need Fishing to get the benefit and that's not high on my priorites right now. We can certainly discuss future trades when we have a connection sorted out.

In other news, I've talked to Selrahc + Ichabod a little, nothing of great interest really but our emails/chats are positive which is always a good thing! On the other hand, the Hippus are a concern as they seem most likely to threaten the peace upon our world.

Anyway nice job on the early sage and good luck![/COLOR]

So, to sum it all up? Friendly talk with the neighbors, not much of consequence, except a minor NAP with Ichabod, a future Tower of Divination deal, and more information on the rest of the map.

I still should probably write something to Sciz, but I have even less to talk about there. And we still haven't met Selrahc to talk to.

Any obvious holes you see that I should follow up on?

[Azoth]

So, to sum it all up? Friendly talk with the neighbors, not much of consequence, except a minor NAP with Ichabod, a future Tower of Divination deal, and more information on the rest of the map.

I still should probably write something to Sciz, but I have even less to talk about there. And we still haven't met Selrahc to talk to.

Any obvious holes you see that I should follow up on?

Let's see. I wouldn't call an eternal NAP "minor," but I approve all the same. That 10-turn cooldown will give us enough time to scout out any army Ichabod might send and prepare accordingly. For our part, we're not planning any aggressive moves against the dwarves anytime soon, so it's fine. I'm glad it worked out so well. I'm less keen on this Tower of Divination business. With our designs on the Grimoire and a 15-tech plan (18 if you include Priesthood, Code of Laws, and Fanaticism, the prerequisites for Malevolent Designs) I'm not sure when we'll get around to Divination or what use we would have for its Tower. The other tech we could lightbulb is Warhorses, for our Hero Herme and Centaur Chargers. But the Tower would help Ichabod much more than it would help us - so we can make encouraging noises but I don't think we should commit to anything at this point.

On a separate note, I see that Ichabod has already lined up a deal for Water Mana with Dantski. That's four civs accounted for; with any luck, Jkaen won't be around that long, which leaves only the Hippus. It's a bold move but maybe you should follow up on Dantski's comment about threats to "the peace upon our world" and propose an embargo on Water Mana against the Hippus. You could both spin it as "not interested in your Nature or Air mana" if approached and it would be a significant setback for them. Just something to think about.

[Mardoc]

Not much to report on this turn, just proceeding according to plans.

[Mardoc]

Sorry for missing the T50 update, you'll have to be content with T51.



As you can see, Podagros is maxxed out on workable cottages until we can either get it some more food, or swap to StW. I'm still building the Tailor and Dereptus to let us work more farms, but I'm starting to give serious thought to how to grow after that. Maybe we should swap to Agrarianism after all. Or, well, when we're no longer Philosophical we can fire the sage - that would let us work two more cottages.



We founded Deinos this turn, finally have a second city. It's going straight to its monument, of course. The workers from Podagros will be here in 1-2 turns, as I want to jump them straight from culture to culture to avoid animals. We're going to have to explore that dungeon soon to get the risk out of our lands.

Also, no sign of Orthus. Murphy's Law says that he's currently bearing down on Jkaen, to release the Mistform before we're ready to deal with it.

[Azoth]

As you can see, Podagros is maxxed out on workable cottages until we can either get it some more food, or swap to StW. I'm still building the Tailor and Dereptus to let us work more farms, but I'm starting to give serious thought to how to grow after that.

Nitpick #1: Wouldn't it be better to build the Dereptus Brewery first, to pick up that +10% commerce from the Wheat?

Maybe we should swap to Agrarianism after all.

I thought we were already planning a switch to Agrarianism along with Apprenticeship?

Or, well, when we're no longer Philosophical we can fire the sage - that would let us work two more cottages.

Nitpick #2: The riverside tile 2N1E of the Wheat cries out for improvement. Are we saving it for another farm?

We're going to have to explore that dungeon soon to get the risk out of our lands.

Yup. Since the dungeon is within our borders, a player will need to declare war to explore it; a wandering scout can't just pop it on a whim. Still, it's something our first few centaurs might want to tackle, while they wait for more numbers on the attack on Jkaen.

Also, no sign of Orthus. Murphy's Law says that he's currently bearing down on Jkaen, to release the Mistform before we're ready to deal with it.

I don't know when Orthus spawns on Quick. Did we get a message saying he was born? If so, whoever is first in the turn order would have a general idea where he is; can we ask them?

[Mardoc]

Nitpick #1: Wouldn't it be better to build the Dereptus Brewery first, to pick up that +10% commerce from the Wheat?

Dereptus is 70 hammers more, and I'm going to want to start a library the instant Writing comes in; Dereptus wouldn't have been done in time assuming any sort of research boost like growing up cottages or pasturing the horse.

I thought we were already planning a switch to Agrarianism along with Apprenticeship?

Err, yes, I think we were. Chalk one casualty to slow turn pace forgetfulness.

Nitpick #2: The riverside tile 2N1E of the Wheat cries out for improvement. Are we saving it for another farm?

No, I forgot it was riverside since it's on a corner, and was moving the workers toward Deinos. One of them can turn back and throw up a cottage. We have two unworked farms at the moment, that's probably enough excess to make it to Sanitation or StW.

I don't know when Orthus spawns on Quick. Did we get a message saying he was born? If so, whoever is first in the turn order would have a general idea where he is; can we ask them?

Was born this turn, got the message. Ichabod hasn't seen him either, he says; and he's first in the order, so I can't quite explain it. Maybe it's last in the order that sees Orthus, when they hit enter? Which would be Sciz?

[NobleHelium]

Last in order, yes. In PBEM 2 it was also Sciz. Heh.

[Mardoc]

Dang it dang it dang it. Now what?


It definitely killed a warrior in Deinos.

For the moment, I continued course, but, well, we're going to need to do something here. Maybe it's time to swap from Writing directly to Hunting? Pile up a Hawk and enough warriors at once and we might have a chance to take it down now.

We're definitely not going to be able to improve Deinos, though, and we might have even an invasion of Podagros.