WW20: Legend of the Undercity

[Azza]

I don't like Meiz's push for information on the nature of Jkaen's relationship with Ichabod. It seemed pretty clear from this post

Don't want to say too much this early but given what I know there may be a good reason for Morte following me around a bit and us protecting each other right now, so I wouldn't read too much into those aspects of his play.

that Jkaen was implying some sort of mason-type role with Ichabod. Fishing for more information about the nature of it feels very scummy to me.

I still feel flug is a better lynch, but Meiz is my second choice at this stage.

Like you said, it seemed clear what he implied, especially the "Don't want to say too much this early". The cat was out of the bag, so I don't get how my question affected things one way or another. It would be good to know if Jkaen was just guessing based on the game lore, so I asked.

It wasn't a particularly noticeable or memorable post though. And pushing for more information about the nature of his role just feels scummy to me.

[Ryan]

. The fact that bigger is following you guys espically Zak on every train that starts and immediately switching votes ? Isn't that exactly the opposite of what you told me bigger I just wrote A few posts up . Your are trying to blend and just follow everyone with your votes while providing 0 reasoning which I think is pretty wired . In the lurker thread you theory crafted and in the scum thingie you were gathering a ton of info about powers and who everyone is while you did nothing in the main thread . I don't think this matches your play style at all if you were town since I'd expect you to post something out of your thoughts and not confirming everyone and following them around .rp wise you got away with really softly with all *HEY* Bigger if there's a town seer please check Q to please me

If there's a huge fallacy in what I am saying please tell me

[Ryan]

Thanks for the advice Rowain I forgot to mention that

[Serdoa]

All those people voting for Meiz... It's a bit funny. Like if Meiz was going to get lynched on day 1. Yeah, right, deadline hour would get close by and people would let Meiz get lynched. Highly doubt it... This is just a way to condemn the poor sod who is near him in the lynch tally. i'm guessing flug_auto or GaiusMarius.

Still, Meiz lynch could give some nice information. I'm positive there's a baddie in his votes, because high profile baddies always like to start the days with "good" cases and Meiz's case is the "goodest" around. Someone should look at the Meiz voters and try to find the baddie. Problem is, if Meiz is indeed one of them, then everything blows up.

In gist you state "At least one Meiz voter is a wolf - though maybe he is the wolf in which case that would probably not be so." Thanks, that was extremely helpful. So many words for no content at all.

Here's a question for everyone around. I think if Meiz is nice and Rowain is a baddie, Rowain would get pretty angry at the GM for giving villagers such an easy way to clear themselves. So someone should look at Rowain's vote against Meiz and analyse if it's an "angry-at-GM" revenge vote or just an "I-suspect-you" vote. I'd do it, but I'm a poor judge of character. I always judge all characters poor...

Translation "I really don't want to start the train on Rowain, could someone else please do so?"...

I think the computer chick (Pindicator) post about Gazglum to be very good. Gazglum post was bad, since he accused flug_auto but voted Gaius Marius. But Pindicator accused Gazglum with a good reasoning and attacked Zakalwe with a seemingly not very sure one...

So, should I vote for Gazglum or Pindicator? What do you think?

I think Pindi was voting Zak first, saw Gaz's thing and simply chose to put pressure on the person he wanted answers from the most. He specifically says that its "testing" and Gaz would be his next target. So I don't know what you're doing here Ichabod? Why are you trying to make it seem like Pindi has done something he hasn't since he specifically stated if Zak answered questions he'd go after Gaz? I don't like this post Ichabod.

Feel free to dislike my post, see if I care. I won't hang anyways, since I have no neck. It was obvious from the start that I'd suspect Gaspar, like it was obvious you would suspect me.

Interesting response Ichabod. No answer at all, quite dodgy indeed.

Regarding Pindicator: What's the point of voting than asking something. Pindicator post felt like "just say something and I'll unvote you, Zak". Vote Zak, seem like brave villager. Unvote him later or keep the useless vote until the end (if Zak hangs on day 1, I'll hang myself on day 2)... Blah... Besides, the only valid point Pindi made was based on flug_auto also being scum or something like that. Again, bad, bad...

"or something like that" - you really give me not the feeling that you are actually interested to look into the players you yourself brought up. It is the second time that I feel you test the waters for a lynch and if you get fire for it, you just step back.

Ok, then, if everyone thinks Pindicator is clean (people don't seem to remember that the cake is a lie), I'll go for Gazglum.

Again, no reason, no nothing. And backing off without reason either. You got questioned by Lewwyn, thats it. But you construe that into "if everyone thinks"... scummy, extremely scummy.

Ichabod

[Azza]

I'll go with Azza. All things considered, I think he's a better day 1 lynch than Gaspar, based on what we've seen so far.

I think I could be convinced to switch to Azza, as well. I don't like the "my top two suspects are the two leading candidates" (meiz& flug) from him either. seems like a lazy scum comment - i.e. I want to be able to switch to either innocent, in case one of my scum buddies starts getting votes.

hmm, I'll have to think about it. Going to bed now, but I'll have time to catch up and cast a final vote 2-3 hours before deadline. Then - beer and football .

I've been on Flug since his no lynch vote, and noted my suspicion of Meiz because I thought he was acting suspiciously. Am I supposed to just ignore my gut feeling that Meiz is dodgy just because he happens to be 2nd on votes at the time? That's stupid.

[Meiz]

It wasn't a particularly noticeable or memorable post though. And pushing for more information about the nature of his role just feels scummy to me.

You think the wolf team might not notice it, in case we all be real quiet? Not going to happen. I didn't ask details of his role, just wanted to clarify if his thoughts on Ichabod were based on the game lore or something else. The info was already out there and clearly he wasn't trying to keep it hidden. There was no need to make a reveal to save Ichabod at this point.

[Azza]

It wasn't a particularly noticeable or memorable post though. And pushing for more information about the nature of his role just feels scummy to me.

You think the wolf team might not notice it, in case we all be real quiet? Not going to happen. I didn't ask details of his role, just wanted to clarify if his thoughts on Ichabod were based on the game lore or something else. The info was already out there and clearly he wasn't trying to keep it hidden. There was no need to make a reveal to save Ichabod at this point.

I think it's possible that the scum would've missed it before you drew specific attention to it.

[Ryan]

To be fair miez I only understood that when you mentioned but that might be partly due to me being an idiot .

[Serdoa]

So, apart from my read on Ichabod, that I consider the best read so far, there are some more "interesting" posts by other players. Mainly zak, so this post will be devoted to him. Starting with his post accusing Gaius:

The first paragraph commenting noncommittally about Meiz, without bringing anything new to the table, is scummy. Seems like he's very conscious about the fact that he's putting Flug up next to Meiz, in the lead.

I don't see that. He is telling about what he thinks about Meiz game. That he isn't bringing anything new to the table is a dumb reasoning and you should know that best zak. Yes, we "veterans" are used to not state everything that was stated before by someone again. But even we do give our feelings - often via stating "I agree with x", but that is not different to explaining it instead in more detail. What we want is that players talk and put forward their reads and feels. If those are always only following others, certainly we will be wary of that player. But your comment above refers to this post

I don't agree with Meiz's claim that Gaspar and Mattimeo are more likely town than not, based on them not knowing who we are hunting. I simply read it as roleplay, which I don't think necessarily leans one way or the other. Additionally, I'm not quite sure what Meiz was really hoping to get out of novice, but I guess it did start conversation, which is what he wanted.

and it does not fit imo. He just gives his opinion about something that was discussed and viewed from different angles by several players. Perfectly fine imo. That you also didn't bother to quote the part that you found so scummy is for me a tell - on you. I think you were aware of the fact that your accusation has nearly no grounds.

The vote for Flug in itself is a bit weak, since he could probably get those answers just by asking. (Remains to be seen, of course.). But mostly it's the way that he feels obliged to comment about Meiz that's scummy.

And this is even worse. The bolded bit reads like a joke, but you are being serious about that. Since when is it considered scummy to make a vote to get someone to talk? Thats exactly what we do all the time. Very, very bad post by you zak.

Ichabod is hilarious IMO. I don't read him as scummy so far.

Why? Please, explain that. I think he plays as scummy as possible for a veteran player right now. Testing the waters on lynches, not committing to anything, trying to stay on the good side of veteran players, deflecting... what else do you need on D1 to find someone scummy?

Meiz, that is a pretty bad reasoning. If anyone making similar posts later on would have had time to think things through and decide on a gambit, what exactly is the reason we should not believe that this is what you did? Imo if you did perceived that as town tells, you tell it. I would do the same thing if I had realised it. Thats perfectly fine, no reason to come up with elaborate thought-processes that led you to decide to tell us - I don't expect any townie to think long about telling the others what they perceive as town-tell. And that is why I perceive the reasoning you give as shoddy. Again, as with your Tasunke-unvote, it is not the action itself that I don't like, but the way you try to explain it.

Meiz

I don't find this post by Serdoa very convincing. Nothing wrong with the argument per se, but I'm not sure I buy that it's founded in a genuine suspicion. I actually get some "vote parking" vibes from this.

Oh, well, that answers my question. Sharing a suspicion by making an argument is scummy for you, even though the argument is ok, because you are not sure if I really felt this suspicion. Have you looked at Ichabods pindicator suspicion? I mean, there you can find a suspicion that really does not feel genuine AND with a bad argument. If you don't like my vote for Meiz, god must you HATE Ichabods try on pindicator...

I don't like this post by Azza either. I might be willing to lynch him for this post, given that he's a pretty good day 1 policy lynch to begin with.

Whats this zak? You don't even explain what of Azzas post should be so bad - and then you tell us that he is a good day 1 policy lynch. I think we have SEVERAL better leads to go on. I feel that you are just trying to move your vote around, without any interest in actually hitting a wolf - just to seem active as you learned from your last game that staying on one target and not bringing several players forward is just getting you lynched. Your post above is way worse than Rowains idea to lynch novice last game if there is no better canditate, because there are already several.

I'll go with Azza. All things considered, I think he's a better day 1 lynch than Gaspar, based on what we've seen so far.

Why? And why is it only between him and Gaspar suddenly? Are there not enough other players? I mean, it is not like we only have 2 hours left to lynch...

This is kind of predicated on Flug being innocent, but I certainly don't mean to say that I take that for granted. Just that all in all, Flug being innocent and Azza being scum seems like a reasonably probable scenario.

Why? I mean, up to this post, I could have seen - bad - reasons for your vote on Azza. But this reasoning here? What makes you state that Flug being innocent and Azza being scum is more probable? On Day 1...

Cross-posting with Meiz. Tempted to join him on Gazglum, too, as I'd feel pretty good about voting with Meiz and Ichabod at this point.

Again, explain that. Meiz I can see, there is just one thing working against him and that is from early game. But Ichabod? And to top that off, since when do you need to vote with other players? It seems you just try to make it seem like those two can be trusted - and I really don't see how one could come to that conclusion on D1 already.

[Serdoa]

And lastly on some others:

Flug does resemble thestick in a ww16. I'm certainly not going to defend him. thestick, however, had a well established baseline, I know absolutely nothing about flug and I'm willing to give him a day to get his bearings - the "don't lynch" newbies isn't a pity thing, its for the village, to prevent mislynches of players we don't have a baseline on.

Plus, honestly, I hate the RB meta of always going after the low hanging fruit in the first few days, and I don't want to participate in that.

A mislynch is a mislynch and mislynching someone we can't read anyway is better for the village than lynching someone we can read much better. Also, when we lynched you D1 you also hated the RB meta, despite that we didn't go for the low hanging fruit in those cases.

If Flug_auto is town, he’s not doing a good job of proving it. If he’s a wolf, he’s not doing a good job of hiding it. Either way, I’m not too keen on lynching him, because he doesn’t feel like a threat. We can always get him later, and it’s the wolves that swim -beneath- the waves that scare me.

Bad reasoning Gazglum. If we believe someone is a wolf and he is the strongest read we have, we lynch him. Postponing him to lynch someone else on whom we have a weaker read is just dumb. Not lynching someone we believe to be a wolf because we fear the other wolves more is just ... I have no words for this. It makes no sense.

I think that Day 1 voting is a lot more random than people like to pretend. I guess mostly it comes down to noticing deviations from people’s normal playstyle, and not being too familiar with everyone here, I’m not able to do much psychoanalysing there. But I don’t like this reasoning from GaiusMarius

Actually nearly everyone likes to pretend that Day1 is a crapshoot. Especially the wolves. Makes it easier to hide. Only in WW18 I drew out a wolf Day1 and in WW19 several players again drew out a wolf. Day 1 is not a crapshoot, but only if village is actually thinking instead of just not paying attention because it is sooo random. It is not.

What information is there to share? None of us has information yet, except about our alignment and power. It seems obvious to me that Flug can’t have any special information that made him pick those names, he’s just fishing in the dark. Flug’s clearly erratic and it was a weird thing to say, but pressuring him seems a bit pointless, while jumping on the lynch-wagon for the guy who is perhaps playing less well than others seems cruel at best, and wolfy at worst.

Thats again not true. This game is only about what everyone is posting. Thats the way the village finds the scum. It is not cruel to point that out and it is not cruel nor wolfy to vote for the one who is giving the strongest reads. I might disagree that this is flug by now, but the reason you condemn his voters is still bad.

I don’t know if Flug is a wolf or not – I think that he’s playing badly and that makes it hard to know. I think he could well be a wolf, and if (for example) he doesn't give a measured response sometime in the rest of this day then I will switch my vote to him.

First you condemn everyone who votes for flug, now you state you will vote for him if he isn't answering. Funny how quickly you turned around on that one.

But I also think that, wolf or not, there are other wolves voting for him. If Flug is town, he makes a great distraction for us to lynch on Day 1, and I think some of the wolves will be encouraging it. If Flug is a wolf, then I think the rest of his team are going to be heading into panic mode about his play-style and will be looking to shut him up/distance themselves.

Thats expecting that a wolf-team is always playing rational. That is not the case, no matter how often someone tries to tell otherwise. Wolves often enough try to save one of theirs, even if it would be rationally better to let him get lynched. See Selrahc last game, whom the wolves really did not want to get lynched on D1, no matter the cost. And if flug is not around, what seems the case, wolves can't shut him up either.

BrickAstrley, Lewwyn, Novice and/or Pindicator are the enemies of the Empress's crown. Trust me, I know this kind, been once myself.

I will agree that this is a very scummy post. flug seems to be trying to throw out names because, what he later claims, in an attempt to try and see what this stirs up with the rest of people. However, this seems to scream almost too blatantly to actually be scum, because he's doing such a poor job of it. I mean, if he was scum, surely the others on the scum team would have told him he was doing something idotic, right?

Yes, they probably would. After it happened. I don't know but it seems you are the second player now that expects that the wolf team can tell one of theirs BEFORE he is doing something stupid that he shouldn't. I have never seen a wolf team run every single one of their posts first through the wolf thread before it is posted in the actual game thread, so why would you expect that they could have stopped him before he posted it?

That said, my vote still remained on him and still does for the time being. Why? Because I do not see any of the other leading candidates to be a good one to lynch right now. I think the Meiz case was too related to some of the beginning role-play cuteness, and Gaspar's case (which I'll examine next), doesn't seem to have any good grounds for it on first glance. So even though I don't like the flug case the best, I do not see any better leads to try and jump onto at this time.

Maybe you need to look harder. Voting for someone you believe to be a misguided villager surely is not going to help the village. That mainly for your benefit, so that you can always point back if he shows up villager and state "Told you so".